What isn't spiritual?

p_o_o,

I agree it can be hard. Whenever I remember the teaching as it appears in the Talmud, I hear it in the context of a hasidic story about two hasidim who went to their rebbe, the maggid of mezritz. They wanted to know how it was possible to praise G!d for the good and the bad. The rebbe didn't answer them. Instead he sent them to see Reb Zuzhia of Anipol to get their answer from him.

After a long journey they arrive in Anipol and head to the inn. They ask around about the great rabbi, Reb Zuzhia. The people at the inn that they speak with don't know who they're talking about. So they talk to the innkeeper. He scratches his head and says "Oh, you mean old Zuzhia" -- I don't remember exactly how it was worded the first time I came across the story but it makes me think of the scene in SW where Obi-Wan's name comes up in the Princess Leia recording. The innkeeper gives them directions to find Reb Zuzhia.

They head out and find themselves in the poorest part of town. There in the middle of two houses is a little shack. They can't believe this could be the home of Reb Zuzhia. So they go up and knock on the door: "Reb Zuzhia?"

"Come in, come in." He says. When they open the door they see a frail old man sitting at a table. He has one dusty book in front of him that's coming apart at the spine and one small window shines a small beam of light down on the book. "I don't have much to eat but if you are hungry, here, let me share this loaf of bread with you. I can get you some water if you'd like."


"Reb Zuzhia," they say. "Our rebbe, the maggid of meziritz, sent us to meet with you. We don't understand in the Talmud where it says we must praise G!d for the good as well as the bad. How is that possible?"

Reb Zuzhia scratches his head. "Well," he says. "I don't really know why the maggid would send you to me. I've never had a bad day in my life." With their question answered, they had back to their home in Mezritz.

Really I just looked for any excuse to tell that story because I like stories about Reb Zuzhia. I don't think most people are like Reb Zuzhia though. I think most of us who deal with that issue are more like the two hasidim. I can almost see them going back, having gotten their answer, and still not being able to live that answer but at least having a direction they can try to go. I don't know if I really agree with the answer either because I think there's some value in suffering, the potential for learning and growth and self-discovery.

I like the way that you talk about what you find in the pain. I think I may have had a similar experience when I was younger and broke my leg. I remember having an awareness that my leg must have been broken and not panicking. Everything seemed more real and I felt more present. I wonder what neuro-chemicals do that.

I like the other version of "There are no atheists in foxholes." "Man's extremity is G!d's opportunity." I think though, that in acknowledging the positive ways humans respond to suffering, it's important to acknowledge that it doesn't always happen that way. New Orleans is an example of that. I don't know what that means. I prefer the version where humans help each other and I want to believe that is the more human way of things playing out, but I don't know if that's true or not. I think we have tendencies that can go in either direction.

Suffering to me seems like an opportunity, but one that the people involved have to actively take advantage of.

-- Dauer
 
Having said that, I am of the opinion that "spirit" can be either good or bad, but that it is the will of the individual that determines whether that spirit is good or bad. In some circumstances, there may be a cultural conflict that causes one individual to interpret certain actions as good where his neighbor might interpret the same actions as bad...this is an ambiguous territory where it is difficult to really say, not knowing the mind of G-d or the inclination of Karma.

In short, I do see certain fallacies with the "evil is of G-d too" train of thought. If such were so, then there is no morality and no need to behave ethically, other than secular, social and cultural conditioning. In other words, we have all been duped for millenia. The whole concept of *G-d* then becomes a moot point.

This is true because you cannot even get the same lawyers in the same courtroom to agree nor can you get the same judges in the same town to agree on what the law really means. Thus you have the same situation with a complete different ruling, depending on where you are.
No one will ever know the mind of god & I dont care how much people claim that their god does this & their god does that, & god wants this & god does that.

So again, it all comes down to human opinion based on what they think their god is saying. When the god says kill then you kill all women & children included.
This is actually a good enough reason for me to reject the notion of gods in that sense.
 
Bandit,

But you have a different god than I do.

I disagree. I think there is only one G!d, just many ways that people perceive and approach him.

You asked what is not spiritual. I answered the question.

And asked questions of your own which I responded to. That is the nature of a discussion.

-- Dauer
 
Juan,

In short, I do see certain fallacies with the "evil is of G-d too" train of thought. If such were so, then there is no morality and no need to behave ethically, other than secular, social and cultural conditioning. In other words, we have all been duped for millenia. The whole concept of *G-d* then becomes a moot point.

I think there is a difference between saying that evil is of G!d too and that G!d doesn't care whether people pursue good or evil.

-- Dauer
 
I tend to think of the spiritual as practices and beliefs that help someone recognize, connect to, embrace, and be transformed by the Spirit (or the One, as you put it).

The other stuff is not un-spiritual in the sense of having nothing to do with spirit. It is more like it is just unfocused or wrongly focused, leading away from rather than toward God, and so delaying one's progress toward perfection.

Sorry to pick on you, path, but this is a good brief.

Yes, I can understand a spirit "turning away" or "turning back to" the Source. This is the essence of forgiveness and contrition. But the effects (the Karma if you will) are still there. Sins may be forgiven, and evil may repent, but the wages of sin will be paid. The scars and burden of evil will remain with a spirit...how long I cannot say...but this is why wisdom and correct living are essential for the spirit (little "s") to purify in the fire and be suitable for reunion with Spirit (big "S").

My opinion, no doubt based in my tradition; the era of purification is limited...at some point there are no more second chances. The distillation and separation I see as a natural process, even necessary (like polarity for electricity). Those who directed their spirits in Love purposely to reunite with the Spirit will reunite...those who directed their spirits purposely in opposition do not reunite and assemble instead at the antipode (wherever that may be).
 
as near as i can fathom, most folks are referring to a mental state when they mean the term spiritual.

metta,

~v

That is where I start with it, but then you would ask is the mind thinking spiritual or is it thinking carnal.
There are tribes today who still do bloody animal sacrifcies & in their mental state, doing that is spiritual.

I don't, but they do.
 
I think there is a difference between saying that evil is of G!d too and that G!d doesn't care whether people pursue good or evil.

Yes, that is why I said:

There is a great deal of mystery still to me...just how "personal" G-d is, and whether or not He or His agents acting on His behalf can in fact sway the courses set in motion. A lot hinges on the answers to questions such as these.

If G-d is impersonal and all is set from the moment of the Big Bang and there is no changing of the course, then G-d couldn't or wouldn't care. Of course, that too would negate ethics and morality beyond conditioning. So what if we're moral, ethical and loving?...G-d doesn't care.

Both tracks have their fallacies. And the end result of both is "why bother?"

G-d must care. G-d must desire us to love Him, in spite of giving us the option and the will to not do so.
 
Bandit,



I disagree. I think there is only one G!d, just many ways that people perceive and approach him.




-- Dauer

You may disagree but that does not make it so.

Again, your god is not my god. I also reject the jewish god & traditions of toilet being spiritual. I reject all the hebrew gods & religions in general.
 
If G-d is impersonal and all is set from the moment of the Big Bang and there is no changing of the course, then G-d couldn't or wouldn't care. Of course, that too would negate ethics and morality beyond conditioning. So what if we're moral, ethical and loving?...G-d doesn't care.


Both tracks have their fallacies. And the end result of both is "why bother?"

That would be more along the lines of deism, which is not so bad. It ultimately leaves humans on their own without intervention or it is very limited. & that is about the way it appears to me the older I get. Not saying that there might be more at a later date but as of now that explains a lot.
 
Sorry to pick on you, path, but this is a good brief.

Yes, I can understand a spirit "turning away" or "turning back to" the Source. This is the essence of forgiveness and contrition. But the effects (the Karma if you will) are still there. Sins may be forgiven, and evil may repent, but the wages of sin will be paid. The scars and burden of evil will remain with a spirit...how long I cannot say...but this is why wisdom and correct living are essential for the spirit (little "s") to purify in the fire and be suitable for reunion with Spirit (big "S").

My opinion, no doubt based in my tradition; the era of purification is limited...at some point there are no more second chances. The distillation and separation I see as a natural process, even necessary (like polarity for electricity). Those who directed their spirits in Love purposely to reunite with the Spirit will reunite...those who directed their spirits purposely in opposition do not reunite and assemble instead at the antipode (wherever that may be).

I agree there are consequences. I don't think, at this point, there is a limitation to purification. I think it continues life after life. I think eventually all go to God. But it's just my opinion. Who knows?
 
Suffering to me seems like an opportunity, but one that the people involved have to actively take advantage of.

-- Dauer

I entirely agree. The interesting thing to me is that in my own experience, whether physical or emotional or mental suffering, the more I turn toward God as a response, the less I suffer. I do not mean that it fixes the problem (at least, it does not fix physical problems for me) but it does relieve the suffering in an emotional plane, because I find spiritual joy even as my body suffers. I'm not sure how to explain it. It's an issue of perspective.
 
so all the millions in africa who suffer from birth through their measley 12 years & die due to starvation & disease & painful worms in their belly is them volunteering for suffering. (of course they would not know what it is to not suffer) I suppose that makes them spiritual.
Something about that does not seem right & it is hardly a choice.

& those who are tortured ...oh that reminds me of egypt & mummyfying people alive. They loved it & could not wait to get their tongue cut out. That made them more spiritual. maybe & maybe not.


I entirely agree. The interesting thing to me is that in my own experience, whether physical or emotional or mental suffering, the more I turn toward God as a response, the less I suffer. I do not mean that it fixes the problem (at least, it does not fix physical problems for me) but it does relieve the suffering in an emotional plane, because I find spiritual joy even as my body suffers. I'm not sure how to explain it. It's an issue of perspective.

I am just the opposite. i did not find anything spiritual about physical suffering. I learned of pain that I never thought could exist but it did not make me stronger in spirit. It did nothing either way for that.
iT made me tolerate physical pain & got me on some good drugs to ease the pain but that was about it. I did not find any spiritual joy but I am glad that you did.
I would admit that I am stronger in some ways but not in spirit or my mind. What it did teach me is the real pain that people suffer so I can relate to those who suffer in pain & those who go through many brutal operations I reach out to them, but as for a god being involved in that, I don't see it either way.

Before I would ever ask/volunteer for that kind of physical pain again I would wish it upon someone else or no one at all. I would take physical death in 24 hours or suicide than to suffer that type of physical pain for months again. That is my perspective.
 
My opinion, no doubt based in my tradition; the era of purification is limited...at some point there are no more second chances. The distillation and separation I see as a natural process, even necessary (like polarity for electricity). Those who directed their spirits in Love purposely to reunite with the Spirit will reunite...those who directed their spirits purposely in opposition do not reunite and assemble instead at the antipode (wherever that may be).
Kim will no doubt have her thoughts on this, but here's my reaction:
Grace is G-d's abundant and unlimited gift. G-d never gives up on anyone. A person may give up on themelves.

Based on the Buddhist notion of attachment (and clinging to specific forms of personal existence), the person identifies him/herself with his/her own mental afflictions, errors, and delusions. As result, the individual has trouble achieving a level of openness with respect to Grace and so they keep making the same mistakes. I'm sure youv'e heard of "Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

The Buddhist notion of rebirth can be seen as a depiction of this self-perpetuating nature of sin, which is such that an individual keeps returning to a state of spiritual death over and over again because they keep making the wrong decisions - decisions that obscure the power of faith. Ordinarily, it's choosing self-love over love of G-d, which has many variations. In Buddhism it is the fundamental error that leads to other errors.

Immature choices reflect an immature faith. One cannot commit wholeheartedly if one is not ready to accept the challenge to perfect obedience. It is possible to rediscover faith and to see the invitation again through love. Love IS that possibility because it is the structure of freedom.

The preoccupation with self indicates a damaged state. Spiritual healing is the restoration of faith and recovering the freedom to do G-d's will. This is an ever-present possibility - even at last second before death. The main problem with waiting till that moment is that it limits the opportunities for becoming who and what we wanted to be for the L-rd.
 
Namaste Bandit,

thank you for the post.

That is where I start with it, but then you would ask is the mind thinking spiritual or is it thinking carnal.
There are tribes today who still do bloody animal sacrifcies & in their mental state, doing that is spiritual.

I don't, but they do.

i wouldn't particularly associate the sense of spiritual with cognitive thought, per se, though it could arise there. it is a different mind state, like a filter, if you will, that alters our perceptions.

i suppose that there are varying methods by which such a mind state can be induced and experienced, i'm sure many of them would not be appealing to me either.

metta,

~v
 
Namaste Netti-Netti,

thank you for the post.

Netti-Netti said:
The Buddhist notion of rebirth can be seen as a depiction of this self-perpetuating nature of sin, which is such that an individual keeps returning to a state of spiritual death over and over again because they keep making the wrong decisions - decisions that obscure the power of faith. Ordinarily, it's choosing self-love over love of G-d, which has many variations. In Buddhism it is the fundamental error that leads to other errors.

i'm not sure that i understand..

are you suggesting that the Buddha Dharma teaches that the fundamental issue with human consciousness is that it doesn't love god?

metta,

~v
 
Namaste Bandit,

thank you for the post.



i wouldn't particularly associate the sense of spiritual with cognitive thought, per se, though it could arise there. it is a different mind state, like a filter, if you will, that alters our perceptions.

i suppose that there are varying methods by which such a mind state can be induced and experienced, i'm sure many of them would not be appealing to me either.

metta,

~v

I have also noticed this thing of god said
So you find different groups becoming spiritual for their god by sacrificing their children to their god as an offering & that is a good spiritual. Human sacrifices for these different gods is nothing new.


or the rules, if you take anything from the forbidden camp then you must be made an example & be put to death...thus sayeth the lord. Somehow I think that is thus sayeth the human carnal mind & the lord has nothing to do with it.
It is not something new & has been around forever. I don't need to reduce to that.

I tend to lean toward something a little more neutral without all the violence, extremism, pain & blood baths & arguments that make people 'spiritual'.
 
What isn't spiritual? Ignorance...especially deliberate ignorance.

--Linda
 
As usual Simone Weil lays it on the line without feel good frills
Quote:
"We must prefer real hell to an imaginary paradise." Simone Weil
Nick,

She was brave--I'll give her that. She was willing to look reality in the face without flinching. But what she failed to realize is that hell doesn't have to be real and paradise doesn't have to be imaginary. They can be, of course. But they don't HAVE to be.

--Linda
 
& stinky feet.

I see nothing spiritual about feet, be it stinky feet or clean feet. I do have an ounce of humility that comes from something spiritual during feetwashing & there does not seem to be another time to compare that to, not even communion- but the feet themselves, the water, the towel, the hour the basin have nothing to do with spirit.
 
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