Reconcling Christianity and Islam ?

Alex P said:
SOME forms of christianity: Jesus is god... Not all... :)
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Merely "some"? That's dishonest. The vast majority of Christianity adheres to the doctrine of the Divinity of Christ.

So, unless you'd like everyone to presume extremist terrorists as the sum total of Islam, small minority doctrines are not to be considered normative for a religion.

Of course, if you're going to stand your ground on this, then it's just as valid to use the Muslim terrorist as the normative Muslim.
 
Who cares about numbers? lol... Just don't throw everyone in the same pot with a blanket statement like that. :D


So OP, things such as who is god who isn't god shouldn't matter... Love one another... Both religions spread peace teach peace practice peace.... Right? So practice it... It doesn't really matter if your black if your a jew a russian a man a woman a christian a muslim... Just love one another... It isn't the religions at fault, it is simply most do not fully understand nor follow their religion.
 
Alex P said:
Who cares about numbers?
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Let's see--people who want a normative view of something and would rather that an extremist minority not be used to define their religion. See also image of Islam in the West...
 
Dogbrain,

unless I misunderstand you, in another forum you made the opposite argument against me for generalizing Christianity in ways that did not acknowledge Eastern Orthodox perspectives. Are you saying that Eastern Orthodoxy is not normative Christianity because it is a minority within Christianity? At what number of adherents does a perspective become worth taking into account? Is your issue primarily with a perceived generalization of Christianity based on a minority or with the inclusion of the minority?

-- Dauer
 
Dogbrain said:
This has nothing to do with whether or not people adhering to these doctrines cannot learn to tolerate each other. There are times when one simply agrees to disagree and doesn't pursue the matter further.
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Exactly. Doctrinal differences are an issue only when a religion's practitioners lack tolerance.

If orthodoxy is an issue, perhaps one should turn one's attention to those who identify with a religion but don't agree with all its major tenets. For example, there are no doubt many who consider themselves Christians who don't believe in the Trinity or in the divinity of Christ. There are also those who believe that Jesus faked his death, got married, and had a family. What are we going to do about these people? Anything?

I think perhaps these kinds of discussions ascribe far more importance to doctrinal matters than the average practitioner does.
 
dauer said:
Dogbrain,

unless I misunderstand you, in another forum you made the opposite argument against me for generalizing Christianity in ways that did not acknowledge Eastern Orthodox perspectives.
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I have never gone so far as to say that a mere "some" Christians hold to the Western doctrines. That's the difference.

Is your issue primarily with a perceived generalization of Christianity based on a minority or with the inclusion of the minority?
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My issue is the tension between the two.
 
Netti-Netti said:
There are also those who believe that Jesus faked his death, got married, and had a family. What are we going to do about these people?
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Define "we", and I would have a better idea.

If, by "we" you mean my specific religious tradition, "we" would show them the door. They would have already separated themselves from the Church, since "we" make no bones about the importance of doctrine. "We" are not a social club or charitable society, although "we" do perform charity and socialize with each other--neither are "our" primary purpose. Freedom of association includes freedom of non-association.

If, by "we", you mean a larger group that I am only incidentally included in due to broad definitions, then "we" do nothing beyond express "our" particular opinions/doctrines on the matter.
 
Tao_Equus said:
If you truly understood the jurisprudence of the Koran and understood where abrogation is to be applied you would know that the above were superseded and rendered invalid. Yes!! In the Koran 'Allah' can change his mind!!
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You're right, we should not allow inconsistent deities and shifting sands scriptures to get in the way of our understanding of religion.

Maybe we should talk about more interesting things - like your favorite flavor seaweed.
 
Dogbrain said:
Define "we", and I would have a better idea.

...If by "we", you mean a larger group that I am only incidentally included in due to broad definitions, then "we" do nothing beyond express "our" particular opinions/doctrines on the matter.
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That was just a manner of speaking. I used the "us" to invoke a hypothetical, Generalized Other - a group of social actors who feel strongly enough about doctrinal differences to do something about it.

Quite often, ideology informs praxis. But of course that is not always the case.
 
The key to reconciling Muslims with Christians is not to convince Muslims to conform with our orthodoxy, but for Christians to become free again. With 'Orthodoxy' there is an automatic assumption of 'What I say is right'. Who did Islam learn this from and who was its role model? Christians who forgot that orthodoxy is preserved by heaven alone. Islam was born into a world in which might was right, and it reflects that in its traditions and structure, believing that wealth is visited upon the Muslim whom God honors (observe the honor of sheiks). Submission, orthodoxy, and might are key principles in Islam, but these are key priniciples in any institution claiming orthodoxy.

Yet I know that within Christianity is the repudiation of idolatry, which is obvious as you can trace the idea back through Torah. Every Christian word is saying 'No one is allowed to be the king, here.' Christians ought to trust God to preserve their doctrines safely in heaven, far from the pens of men yet close to men in practice. Christianity is supposed to be a community that avoids centralized authorities and other human means of guaranteeing orthodoxy. Did Abraham write a 20 volume commentary upon the gospel? We know that it was preached to him, so how was it preserved from his time to Jesus time?
 
Dream said:
The key to reconciling Muslims with Christians is not to convince Muslims to conform with our orthodoxy, but for Christians to become free again.
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Why on earth should I have to change my religious beliefs to suit Islam? They don't have to change to suit me, after all.

I never had any trouble getting along with the Muslim guy in my D&D group. Seems to me that the way we dealt with each other without either of us violating the integrity of our own religions is far better than demanding that Christians destroy their own faith.
 
Christianity and Islam don't necessarily have to merge into one religion just to be friends.

I think that both Christians and Muslims can agree that it was Caiaphas who first declared that Jesus was the Messiah. As non-Jews, they can both agree that Messiah is a Hebrew word. As non-Greeks, they can both agree that rex is a Greek word. Greek Christians can believe whatever they want and have some olives in the mean time. I think they can both agree that Pilate was more interested in returning to bed with his wife than listening to a petty squabble.

Oh, yea, and there's also that part about being loving, etc..
 
I'm not suggesting you change beliefs to suit Islam! I'm saying Islam is a related issue, because it reacts to our control obsession. We won't destroy our faith if we release control. That would be impossible, which is my point. As long as we clench orthodoxy in our fists, our orthodoxy remains broken and as a symptom there will always be division (and Islam will continue to follow her role model). I'm suggesting that if we truly consider the standard to be with God instead of taking it into our own hands, the comforter will lead us into all truth.

It is a ideal which can be seen in the image of Peter walking on the water with Jesus. Peter gets distracted by the waves at first, but Jesus (the word made flesh) takes him by the hand. This is a symbolic lesson, as the seas symbolize darkness and ignorance and the boat is a baptismal ark of ritual which is no longer required to uphold Peter from the depths of ignorance and darkness. It is no longer ritual which reminds and transforms him. Instead he merely treads in faith, and is offered a hand when he sinks. He starts to sink if he loses faith that he will be upheld, neverless he came when called out of the boat which was enough. Those in the boat are afraid of Jesus at first, their faces turning pale, but the word of God walking on the water says to them "Don't be afraid. I'm not a ghost."
 
The Holy Qur'an states that: all believing Jews, Christians, Sabians and Muslims--all who believe in One God, the Last Day and what was revealed to them, shall enter Heaven.

Obviosly, Islaam recognizes all four as separate religious groups with authentic Revelations from One, Same God Almighty. Qur'anic Message is very clear that a person not following Qur'an may still be a believer as long as he/she believes what came to his/her people from God The Merciful.

Qur'an may be critical of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians who are revealed the Same Book--Bible), but does recognize that among them (just like among the Muslims) there are pious (spelling?), faithful servants of God The Merciful.

Now, someone may bring up the issue of military jihad and those Muslims who believe they must fight everyone for the survival of Islaam no matter what. Again, Qur'an is very clear that a believing Muslim if he must fight a military jihad, provided he was attacked first and it is for the freedom of his people and their right on Islaam, he still must be cautious to fight the war against another people because among them could be believers! Something very important some may not remember at times.
 
Amica said:
The Holy Qur'an states that: all believing Jews, Christians, Sabians and Muslims--all who believe in One God, the Last Day and what was revealed to them, shall enter Heaven.

Obviosly, Islaam recognizes all four as separate religious groups with authentic Revelations from One, Same God Almighty. Qur'anic Message is very clear that a person not following Qur'an may still be a believer as long as he/she believes what came to his/her people from God The Merciful.

Qur'an may be critical of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians who are revealed the Same Book--Bible), but does recognize that among them (just like among the Muslims) there are pious (spelling?), faithful servants of God The Merciful.

Now, someone may bring up the issue of military jihad and those Muslims who believe they must fight everyone for the survival of Islaam no matter what. Again, Qur'an is very clear that a believing Muslim if he must fight a military jihad, provided he was attacked first and it is for the freedom of his people and their right on Islaam, he still must be cautious to fight the war against another people because among them could be believers! Something very important some may not remember at times.
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nice post, can you tell me where in the Quran it says this ?

The Holy Qur'an states that: all believing Jews, Christians, Sabians and Muslims--all who believe in One God, the Last Day and what was revealed to them, shall enter Heaven.
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Tao_Equus said:
Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)
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8:42
[Remember that day] when you were at the near end of the valley [of Badr], and they were at its farthest end, while the caravan was below you.43 And if you had known that a battle was to take place, you would indeed have refused to accept the challenge:44 but [the battle was brought about none the less,] so that God might accomplish a thing [which He willed] to be done,45 [and] that he who would perish might perish in clear evidence of the truth, and that he who would remain alive might live in clear evidence of the truth.46 And, behold, God is indeed all-hearing, all-knowing.
8:43
Lo! God showed them to thee in a dream as few:47 for, had He shown them to you as many, you would surely have lost heart, and would surely have disagreed with one another about what to do.48 But God saved [you from this]: verily, He has full knowledge of what is the hearts [of men]. (8:44) And so, when you met in battle, He made them appear as few in your eyes - just as He made you appear as of little account in their eyes - so that God might accomplish a thing [which He willed] to be done: 49 for all things go back to God [as their source].
8:45
[Hence,] O you who have attained to faith, when you meet a host in battle, be firm, and remember God often; so that you might attain to a happy state! (8:46) And pay heed unto God and His Apostle, and do not [allow yourselves to] be at variance with one another, lest you lose heart and your moral strength desert you.50 And be patient in adversity: for, verily, God is with those who are patient in adversity.
8:47
And be not like those [unbelievers] who went forth from their homelands full of self-conceit and a desire to be seen and praised by men 51 for they were trying to turn others away from the path of God - the while God encompassed all their doings [with His might]. (8:48) And, lo, Satan made all their doings seem goodly to them, and said, "No one can overcome you this day, for, behold, I shall be your protector! 52 - but as soon as the two hosts came within sight of one another, he turned on his heels and said, "Behold, I am not responsible for you: behold, I see something that you do not see: behold, I fear God - for God is severe in retribution!"53
8:49
At the same time, the hypocrites and those in whose hearts was disease were saying, "Their faith has deluded these [believers]!"54
But he who places his trust in God [knows that], verily, God is almighty, wise.
8:50
AND IF thou couldst but see [how it will be] when He causes those who are bent on denying the truth to die: the angels will strike their faces: and their backs,55 and [will say]: "Taste suffering through fire (8:51) in return for what your own hands have wrought - for, never does God do the least wrong to His creatures!"
8:52
[To them shall happen.] the like of what happened to Pharaoh's people and those who lived before them: they denied the truth of God's messages and so God took them to task for their sins. Verily, God is powerful, severe in retribution! (8:53) This, because God would never change 56 the blessings with which He has graced a people unless they change their inner selves :57 and [know] that God is all-hearing, all-seeing.
8:54
[To those sinners shall happen] the like of what happened to Pharaoh's people and those who lived before them: they gave the lie to their Sustainer's messages - and so We destroyed them in return for their sins, and caused Pharaoh's people to drown: for they were evildoers all. (8:55) Verily, the vilest creatures in the sight of God are those who are bent on denying the truth and therefore do not believe.58
8:56
AS FOR THOSE with whom thou hast made a covenant, and who thereupon break their covenant on every occasion,59 not being conscious of God - (8:57) if thou find them at war [with you], make of them a fearsome example for those who follow them,60 so that they might take it to heart; (8:58) or, if thou hast reason to fear treachery61 from people [with whom thou hast made a covenant], cast it back at them in an equitable manner:62 for, verily, God does not love the treacherous!

Its talking about the battle of badr, & the lessons gained from it. Do try to read a few verses above & below what you quote.

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)
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9:1
DISAVOWAL by God and His Apostle [is herewith announced] unto those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God, [and] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant.1
9:2
[Announce unto them:] "Go, then, [freely] about the earth for four months2- but know that you can never elude God, and that, verily, God shall bring disgrace upon all who refuse to acknowledge the truth!" (9:3) And a proclamation from God and His Apostle [is herewith made] unto all mankind on this day of the Greatest Pilgrimage:3 "God disavows all who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him, and [so does] His Apostle. Hence, if you repent, it shall be for your own good; and if you turn away, then know that you can never elude God!"
And unto those who are bent on denying the truth give thou [O Prophet] the tiding of grievous chastisement.
9:4
But excepted shall be4- from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God - [people] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant and who thereafter have in no wise failed to fulfil their obligations towards you, and neither have aided anyone against you: observe, then, your covenant with them until the end of the term agreed with them.5 Verily, God loves those who are conscious of Him. (9:5) And so, when the sacred months are over,6 slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them,7 and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place!8 Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, let them go their way: for, behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.9
9:6
And if any of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God seeks thy protection,10 grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word of God [from thee]; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure:11 this, because they [may be] people who [sin only because they] do not know [the truth].

And this one is talking about Meccans after they broke a treaty, before the conquest of Mecca.

[Bayyinah 98:6] Indeed all disbelievers, the People of the Book(s) and the polytheists, are in the fire of hell – they will remain in it for ever; it is they who are the worst among the creation.
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98:1
IT IS NOT [conceivable] that such as are bent on denying the truth - [be they] from among the followers of earlier revelation or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God - should ever be abandoned [by Him] ere there comes unto them the [full] evidence of the truth: (2) an apostle from God, conveying [unto them] revelations blest with purity, (3) wherein there are ordinances of ever-true soundness and clarity.
98:4
Now those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime did break up their unity [of faith] after such an evidence of the truth had come to them. (98:5) And withal, they were not enjoined aught but that they should worship God, sincere in their faith in Him alone, turning away from all that is false; and that they should be constant in prayer; and that they should spend in charity: for this is a moral law endowed with ever-true soundness and clarity.
98:6
Verily, those who [despite all evidence] are bent on denying the truth - [be they] from among the followers of earlier revelation or from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God - will find themselves in the fire of hell, therein to abide: they are the worst of all creatures.
98:7
[And,] verily, those who have attained to faith, and do righteous deeds - it is they, they who are the best of all creatures. (98:8) Their reward [awaits them] with God: gardens of perpetual bliss, through which running waters flow, therein to abide beyond the count of time; well-pleased is God with them, and well-pleased are they with Him: all this awaits him who of his Sustainer stands in awe!

Revealed in later period of Mecca, or early period of Medina, it simply gives a difference etween believers & disbelieveers. See it in its cultural perspective.

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" Surah 2: 106
"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Surah 16:101
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Just like Mosaic law was superceded by Muhammaden law. Who told you God changes his mind? He gives people laws according to their needs.
 
Eclectic Mystic said:
As non-Greeks, they can both agree that rex is a Greek word.
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"Rex" is not a Greek word.


And it's nice to know that you are willing to dismiss "Greek Christians" so flippantly. Tells me everything I need to know about your credibility.
 
Dream said:
I'm not suggesting you change beliefs to suit Islam!
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You specifically demanded that I abandon Orthdoxy. I will not abandon the Orthodox Church, nor will I abandon her doctrines. That hasn't stopped me from being friendly enough to Muslims of my acquaintance.
 
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