Hell

[Lunitik]

Removed not just "as master" I would say!

Well, no, you will still use it, but you will cease to be used by it.

Yeah, I suppose I could call him my "friends" rather than my "friend," but I won't.

Heh, I think I was going to take the sentence in another direction at first and have not backspaced far enough... either that or it is just a typo.

It is strange you have decided to comment on this rather than my actual point, however.

 

[seattlegal]

Well, no, you will still use it, but you will cease to be used by it.



Heh, I think I was going to take the sentence in another direction at first and have not backspaced far enough... either that or it is just a typo.

It is strange you have decided to comment on this rather than my actual point, however.

Alright, I will.

I have not described any kind of compartmentalization at all, I have discussed unification of consciousness. I have discussed removing the absurdity of mind-as-master from the equation. Your friends seems to have gone the other direction, he has allowed many minds to reside in a single consciousness...

Personality being a particular pattern of mind, although I am quite aware of Multiple Personality Disorder, and yet there is something which has watched them coming and going... something has remained constant.

Regarding the blue highlight above: my friend has described this as his "core consciousness." Once I got a call from him saying that his "core consciousness" was missing for 3 days, and he was surprised that his regular day-to-day business was taken care of during that time. (I didn't tell him that he had been calling me quite a bit over those three days asking for advice about the most mundane things.)

 

[luecy7]

It is not a chaos at all, it is a spontaneity.

Predictability is utterly boring, why would I would to be around someone so monotonous?

So you do not co-ordinate and co-operate with others? Ever plan and make it to a date?

Do you interact with people and places in your dreams? What is different?

If you wish to interact with me, it will not be in my sleep, nor in a dream.

It is the same comparing normal human experience to what I am speaking, that of Buddha and Christ.

I am fairly certain you are not speaking anything of Christ. I'm not so sure about Buddha.

It is not a breaking in, it is a breaking out of the jail your current beliefs and concepts - deep concepts such as even who you are, what you are - have created.

You think you have broken out of jail. I am not seeking to break out of anything.

When you know what you truly are, you will understand the absurdity of the second part of your statement here. Not only is there nothing that isn't yours, there is nothing that isn't you. There can be no possession, you have imagined it all to avoid being alone.

What I do, what I have done, is mine. I own it. Do you wish me to know what you have done... of everything that is yours?

 

[Lunitik]

Regarding the blue highlight above: my friend has described this as his "core consciousness." Once I got a call from him saying that his "core consciousness" was missing for 3 days, and he was surprised that his regular day-to-day business was taken care of during that time. (I didn't tell him that he had been calling me quite a bit over those three days asking for advice about the most mundane things.)

It cannot have been his core consciousness, because again something has watched it leave and come back... our core being is not transient at all, it is utterly constant and permanent. It is that which all arises from, what I ask today is can this too be observed? To turn consciousness back on itself, this is enlightenment, this is utter integrity. Your friend has gone the other way, he has become so much a chaos that his mind has ceased to be contiguous even, it has developed further personalities where I say even one is false.

I would be interested to hear the sorts of questions he was asking, although you needn't be specific - just general topics of inquiry.

 

[Lunitik]

If I was to meet your friend, I would see if he can bring these personalities to a meeting place, let them introduce each other and see if they are actually different. Are they not merely different sides of the host? It will seem insane, but how else to bring them at least back into an integrated whole?

To overcome one belief, another is necessary... if he is too much gone though, it will be necessary to bring this belief to its full conclusion. He can even use these splits of himself and their convergence later, for if those three were really only one it is not much a leap to see the same for himself in the trinity - whether he wishes to take the role of Holy Spirit or the body of Christ...

All things happen for a reason, it is perfectly right that at the base of consciousness there is first 3, and then 2, and then finally there is only One. Yet this One is not as a number, it is better to say not two, neither this nor that - neti neti. We can see it as the three dimensions of space, then the relationship of object and subject, then there is non-duality at the absolute depths...

I have not known someone get stuck as your friend has though, usually they go in deeper or are scared and come out totally. It is curious...

 

[seattlegal]

It cannot have been his core consciousness, because again something has watched it leave and come back... our core being is not transient at all, it is utterly constant and permanent. It is that which all arises from, what I ask today is can this too be observed? To turn consciousness back on itself, this is enlightenment, this is utter integrity. Your friend has gone the other way, he has become so much a chaos that his mind has ceased to be contiguous even, it has developed further personalities where I say even one is false.

Alrighty.

I would be interested to hear the sorts of questions he was asking, although you needn't be specific - just general topics of inquiry.

Mundane things--questions about mailing things, cooking, how often to water which plants, how often to eat!

 

[luecy7]

Regarding the blue highlight above: my friend has described this as his "core consciousness." Once I got a call from him saying that his "core consciousness" was missing for 3 days, and he was surprised that his regular day-to-day business was taken care of during that time. (I didn't tell him that he had been calling me quite a bit over those three days asking for advice about the most mundane things.)

Attention deficit disorder? A bit of Insomnia? Drugs?

Reminds me of someone that I know, who was recovering from a lifestyle of drugs and doing evil.

 

[radarmark]

Back before the invention of Paxel and Seoquel (my normal drugs) when I often went nights without sleep (sometimes days on end), this was a typical kind of disassociation for me. "Woke up" (came to) in the car miles from where I was going. I wrote autobiographically as if I had been several different people. I do not like the effect. But it is one very strong reason I doubt the existence of a self (I do not recommend this to prove a point... very hard on the body and emotions).

Pax et amore vincunt omnia!

 

[luecy7]

All things happen for a reason...

Yup, this other guy had that unfortunate belief too. Naturally, since he did not wish to own up to his own erratic actions.

 

[Lunitik]

So you do not co-ordinate and co-operate with others? Ever plan and make it to a date?

Certainly not, for what?

If you wish to interact with me, it will not be in my sleep, nor in a dream.

I am saying that your life is a dream for something, you are an aspect of that experiencing itself in a particular way. Compared to that awareness, you are utterly steadfast asleep, but you do not know it. Will you know you are dreaming while the dream is happening? Have you ever woken from a dream and expected it to be continuing, startled?

I am fairly certain you are not speaking anything of Christ. I'm not so sure about Buddha.

Jesus has said he and his father are one, this is an expression of non-duality.

1 Corinthians 12:12-27 describes the human condition, that we are as organs within the body of existence, each performing its own role. Again, this describes non-duality, how we are all part of the same being.

I could say much more, but it gradually becomes more and more a matter of understanding him. He is not a special person, it is quite normal only grace has happened to him and has not happened to you.

You think you have broken out of jail. I am not seeking to break out of anything.

This is why you will not understand me, until something happens which causes a shift, until there is some event in your life which will trigger your questioning of this existence you will remain content with your current experience.

Just remember, you will eventually die, what I say is inevitable for you at least upon death. Why postpone the inevitable? It only takes a small amount of curiosity start a true seeking. You can know your source before the moment of death though, yes there is a great joy and ecstasy there, it is the reward, but it is not why to go home.

You go home to answer "Who am I?", "Why am I here?", these types of existential and profound questions, it is the only way to know the answers. Of course it is a rare being that is brave enough to inquire into these things, 99% of humans never discover this during life.

What I do, what I have done, is mine. I own it. Do you wish me to know what you have done... of everything that is yours?

They are merely the experiences during your time in this body, something you cling to and form your ego through. The past is dead, why identify with a dead thing? Same is for the future, it is not yet born yet you are dreaming about it, desiring for it. It is all to avoid being here, this moment, alone with existence, simply existing.

This is what I say about being a slave to the mind, it is what pulls you this way and that, pulls you away from pure being. I own nothing, I have done nothing, I have merely watched things occur and have things at my disposal to use. Why become attached to them, what meaning does any of it have for me? There is none at all, they are just things and memories, they are not me, if all are taken away tomorrow it will not be important to me. They are things that have gotten me here, but here is all that matters, now is all that is real.

 

[Lunitik]

Mundane things--questions about mailing things, cooking, how often to water which plants, how often to eat!

How strange, then, that he has managed to use the telephone and recall who you are...

 

[Lunitik]

Yup, this other guy had that unfortunate belief too. Naturally, since he did not wish to own up to his own erratic actions.

I have not said erratic, I said unpredictable, spontaneous. I do not act out of memory, nothing I do is a programmed response to a particular situation, everything I do is utterly authentic. It does not mean chaotic, in fact I am utterly a cosmos, how can it be otherwise when I am utterly integrated?

Do you believe existence - God if you like - has a plan for each of us? Do you think it is possible to deviate from that plan? If you do, then you believe God is not omnipotent, you believe you have power over God to do your own thing, yet by definition you cannot do your own thing if he is omnipotent, certainly you cannot trick Him because he is omniscience and omnipresent, how will you do something he does not want?

This is the meaning of the 40 days and 40 nights, the encounter with the devil. It is the last ditch effort of the mind to remain the master, this delusion that it is in control of anything. When the devil is defeated, this is the moment Jesus has become enlightened, now he does nothing but the will of God. It simply means that now he flows with existence, he no longer tries to swim against the stream, he allows it to take him where it must. Yet we cannot overcome the current even if we fight it, it only postpones our journey to the ocean.

Do you not see what I say at all? Does nothing of it resonate within you? Do you truly believe this is it? Is this life really that enjoyable for you that you do not ask why it is so? Every activity you enjoy, you will have to stop it through inability in old age or because you are dead. Everything you strive for, you will eventually have to give up on. Long enough into the future, the very manifest world we live in will have to end, there simply isn't the resources to continue indefinitely - there is a limited amount of hydrogen, and all things have been created within stars which are formed by it. Eventually all stars will die and this place will return to blackness and eventually the void. Nothing that is done here ever truly matters, because it is all transient, ultimately temporary.

All I say is you can know this for yourself, and that is our purpose, the great joy of existence is discovering itself in every way possible. It wants you to know it, it wants to be conscious again of itself - this is why we are here, to participate in the dance, the game, the play of existence itself. When will it be your time?

 

[Lunitik]

Let go into now, meet yourself again, remember who you are.

Before all concepts, before all identifications, before language itself has been learned and thus before mind has developed. What is it which knows it is, what is it which observes all of this? Even the knowledge that "I am" is observed, but by what?

Observe the observer and you will awaken, transcend duality and you will know what is. You have always been and will always be, you have been alone daydreaming all along, will you snap out of it? This is true happiness, true love, because it is not transient, now you are free from the motions of the wheel, now you simply watch the wheel role and laugh, it is not affecting you any more.

Of course, if you like the journey, you can stay in the wheel, there is nothing wrong but then why engage in discussions relating to stepping out? You can step out this very moment or you can allow life to continue rolling you around and back and forth for longer. When you step out, you can simply flout with the air, all weight is removed. Seas will part for you so your path ceases to be arduous at all, in the wheel you are just obeying gravity, but the wind is not susceptible to that.

I speak in metaphors because there is no other way to say...

 

[luecy7]

Certainly not, for what?

So much for your love.

Will you know you are dreaming while the dream is happening?

In a sense, I often do.

Have you ever woken from a dream and expected it to be continuing, startled?

Nope.

Jesus has said he and his father are one, this is an expression of non-duality.

An expression of a rather solid relationship.

I could say much more, but it gradually becomes more and more a matter of understanding him. He is not a special person, it is quite normal only grace has happened to him and has not happened to you.

My measure of grace should be the grace that I have given.

This is why you will not understand me, until something happens which causes a shift, until there is some event in your life which will trigger your questioning of this existence you will remain content with your current experience.

I am reading your words. If you wish me to get to know you better then send me a PM and be prepared to travel.

Just remember, you will eventually die, what I say is inevitable for you at least upon death. Why postpone the inevitable?

Why throw away my investment of time with people?

You go home to answer "Who am I?", "Why am I here?", these types of existential and profound questions, it is the only way to know the answers.

Sorry, I just don't have your existential angst.

Of course it is a rare being that is brave enough to inquire into these things, 99% of humans never discover this during life.

Snake oil salesman... truly evil.

The past is dead, why identify with a dead thing?
Same is for the future, it is not yet born yet you are dreaming about it, desiring for it. It is all to avoid being here, this moment, alone with existence, simply existing.

Time is not living, and neither is gravity. Why identify with gravity?

This is what I say about being a slave to the mind, it is what pulls you this way and that, pulls you away from pure being. I own nothing, I have done nothing, I have merely watched things occur and have things at my disposal to use. Why become attached to them, what meaning does any of it have for me? There is none at all, they are just things and memories, they are not me, if all are taken away tomorrow it will not be important to me. They are things that have gotten me here, but here is all that matters, now is all that is real.

What it mine, what I have done, and do, you are unable to take, and I am unable to give, even if you or I wanted to.

 

[Lunitik]

So much for your love.

I love them enough to give them freedom, to not cling and have a subtle control over them. Furthermore, you have yet to fathom that love need not be targeted, I love the stranger as much as I love family.

An expression of a rather solid relationship.

Relation means distinct, other is still object. You have merely not delved deeply enough into it to allow yourself to merge into the other, this is not love. He has chosen this way to say it because there is no way to express it accurately. Again, though, you have not experienced so you do not understand correctly.

My measure of grace should be the grace that I have given.

What can you give when you have nothing?

Grace is from the Ultimate, cannot come from somewhere else. Love cannot come from somewhere else, nothing can ever come from somewhere else. Your bodymind believes itself the doer, but it is not. You can watch both, so how can they be you? You can only know yourself when you find that which is not observed, which is not the observer... when there is a pure observing only, non-dual.

I am reading your words. If you wish me to get to know you better then send me a PM and be prepared to travel.

How will you get to know me? You do not even know yourself.

You will inquire into irrelevant things, you will analyze based on surface crap... do you think this will result in knowing me? If you want to know me, simply be silent, in knowing yourself through that silence, you will also know me.

Why throw away my investment of time with people?

Who has said to throw it away? Every moment is a gift, it does not mean you should cling to it though, you simply accept the gift, be thankful and go on sharing yourself - not with anyone in particular, although your family will need special attention, especially your children. Simply share with whomsoever you encounter, everyone you meet has entered your experience for a reason, can you discover why? This is the excitement of each new person, what will be shared between us to help on our ways?

Sorry, I just don't have your existential angst.

It is because you have not really been honest with what this world is, you have not looked at it logically and gone all the way with it. The inevitable result of this is a deep depression, this provides contrast for the far deeper joy felt upon finding yourself.

Time is not living, and neither is gravity. Why identify with gravity?

Both are perceived, you have missed my point.

What it mine, what I have done, and do, you are unable to take, and I am unable to give, even if you or I wanted to.

What you have done, you do not even have, you only have a memory of it. I do not say you will have to delete it, I merely say to stop clinging to it, stop identifying with it.

The past is not the present, only this moment is real, nothing else can ever be.

 

[luecy7]

I love them enough to give them freedom, to not cling and have a subtle control over them. Furthermore, you have yet to fathom that love need not be targeted, I love the stranger as much as I love family.

If you are unable or unwilling to co-ordinate or co-operate, then you are a stranger even to your family.

Again, though, you have not experienced so you do not understand correctly.

You speak of my experience, pretending to know my experience.

What can you give when you have nothing?

My measure is what I have given. I have what God and others have given me.

How will you get to know me? You do not even know yourself.

So now you claim to know what I know?

You will inquire into irrelevant things, you will analyze based on surface crap... do you think this will result in knowing me?

I know how to get to know you. Send me a PM and be prepared to travel.

If you want to know me, simply be silent, in knowing yourself through that silence, you will also know me.

I'm not so eager to get to know you, but if you want me to then I am willing. If instead you prefer that I remain silent and inactive with you, then I will.

Who has said to throw it away? Every moment is a gift...

Not exactly true. There is plenty of dishonesty, thievery, adultery, and murder here. Some people have moments that are not exactly given to them.

The inevitable result of this is a deep depression, this provides contrast for the far deeper joy felt upon finding yourself.

I'm relatively certain your presence would be depressing, but I know that I could bear it.

What you have done, you do not even have, you only have a memory of it. I do not say you will have to delete it, I merely say to stop clinging to it, stop identifying with it.

The memory of God is absolutely perfect. Maybe you will see... someday?

The past is not the present, only this moment is real, nothing else can ever be.

Even this moment is not the moment that you hoped it would be.

 

[Lunitik]

The past, the future, these are appealing distractions which pull us away from the present, the gift of the divine. From memories, we will not permit ourselves to be authentic, we will want to be consistent and also act on something which has worked in the past. From desires, we will also miss this moment, we are too much distracted planning for where we are going. It simply proves that you are not happy in this moment, you are avoiding the present. What is the need? What will really be accomplished by either of these? Your conditioning at present says you must be heading somewhere, you must act a certain way. This is not life, this is as close to death as it gets without actually dying. Life only exists in the moments of utter totality, authenticity, society goes on creating biological machines

 

[luecy7]

The past, the future, these are appealing distractions which pull us away from the present, the gift of the divine. From memories, we will not permit ourselves to be authentic, we will want to be consistent and also act on something which has worked in the past. From desires, we will also miss this moment, we are too much distracted planning for where we are going. It simply proves that you are not happy in this moment, you are avoiding the present. What is the need? What will really be accomplished by either of these? Your conditioning at present says you must be heading somewhere, you must act a certain way. This is not life, this is as close to death as it gets without actually dying. Life only exists in the moments of utter totality, authenticity, society goes on creating biological machines

You can live and do good, or you can live and do evil. Throwing away and not wishing to review your history... I have seen that behavior before, and I found those individuals to be exceedingly evil.

 

[Etu Malku]

I am interested to know & explore if the concept of Hell and eternal punishment is purely a Christian preoccupation. Are people of the Jewish faith also as concerned about this possibility in the hereafter or is the focus on Hell introduced in the New Testament? Also, is this concept reflected in other religious or spiritual beliefs & traditions?

In Luciferianism, we have no such thing as a Hell, or eternal punishment, but we are concerned with the 'hereafter' in terms of incarnations and apotheosis.

 

[Lunitik]

If you are unable or unwilling to co-ordinate or co-operate, then you are a stranger even to your family.

The trouble arises because they think they know me, the stranger is truly beautiful because they do not cling, they permit freedom.

You speak of my experience, pretending to know my experience.

No, I simply know you have not experienced because your statements make it very clear. It is not an assumption at all on my part, it is plainly obvious when another has tasted their emptiness, you cling to being full.

My measure is what I have given. I have what God and others have given me.

So you believe your existence to be dependent?
You believe these capacities to be limited?

This bodies existence is dependent, it requires nourishment, but does the raw beingness, the witness require anything? I can assure you its capacity to love - to give grace - is not limited at all, in certain moments I almost wish it was because it can become overbearing. Not in a bad way, but it is a shame any is spilled when there is no one to receive.

So now you claim to know what I know?

You have an idea about yourself based on your interactions with others, you have even said you are known by certain things, this and other statements show you cannot know yourself because if you did you would understand how irrelevant such statements are to that. You know your experiences, you know how others react to you, but you have said looking at yourself - which is what meditation is, silently observing self - has simply not worked for you, you see it as mental masturbation because you have not even stopped mind for one second. Without mind moved out of the way, how can you look at what is below it?

Not exactly true. There is plenty of thievery, adultery, and murder here.

Thievery shows that objects do not make you.
Adultery shows that people do not make you.
Murder shows that life is fragile.

Are these not also gifts? Of course they will not seem so when they are happening to you, but if you can detach and look they can be catalysts for growth... even murder, if you can watch yourself dying it will be a great moment of growth for your being.

I'm relatively certain your presence would be depressing, but I know how to bear it.

I have spoken of the depression providing a profound contrast between the resulting joy... you have decided I must be stuck in the depression stage? Strange...

The memory of God is absolutely perfect. Maybe you will see... someday?

Everything I say is in reference to having seen God, having remembered that I am God experiencing himself. Just uttering this through the fingers lights up my being, it is difficult to express. Such joy, and yet to call it God is dualistic. We have named something because it is other, and this word is merely a concept which references something. This means God is in the mind for you, memory also is of mind. Why have you permitted mind to take back over if you have experienced oneness?

Even this moment is not the moment that you hoped it would be.

This moment is all it can be, and is utterly perfect, why should it be something different, how can it be improved? There is no other possibility at all...