Why is Christianity loosing the cultural war ?

[soleil10]

So why have you extensively quoted an opinion piece, rather any studies to back up your claims - to which you were called out for a long time ago on this thread?

The reason, I quote Stanley Kurtz is because he respond to the claims in the book mentioned and explained why some of the #s are misleading. There is much more information available on this if you want to compare both sides.

I also quoted the study on marriage done at Rutgers University. It is updated every year and quite respected.

 

[soleil10]

I agree..Stanley Kurtz is not exactly an objective commentator. Plus Soleil 10, the Unification Church and the teachings of Sun Myung Moon are extremely biased. I respect your beliefs and I support your right to follow your religion (no matter how wrong I think those teachings are). However, what I don't support is your right to force the rest of the country to follow the teachings of Moon.

I am not forcing anything on anyone. That is a very cheap shot. Is it because I became suspicious about the research you posted.

If you are going to attack Spedale and Eskridge "as gay authors who has a self interest."

Janz, If you introduce someone as a credible researcher who is publishing research on a subject and at the same time you look at their deep involvement for one side of a cause that affect him directly, it has to be taken into consideration.

Well then, Moon is someone who believes he is the Messiah of the Second Coming and that his family is the first true family in all history. Talk about self interest. Moon also supports what I call true religiofascism where his religion is married to the state and he is King.

Janz, talk about low blow and changing of subject !!!! Is attacking someone else religion acceptable in this forum ? Just because I do not agree with ss marriage, does it mean that I should receive such vicious attack?

I don't know how you know that Spedale and Eskridge are gay or not, but their research and book Gay Marriage: for Better or for Worse?: What We've Learned from the Evidence show that (1) there is no "slippery slope" - 17 years of de facto gay marriage in Scandinavia has NOT led to any calls for polygamy, group marriage or the like and (2) allowing same-sex couples to marry does NOT harm the institution of marriage - in fact, more heterosexual couples are getting married now, and less are getting divorced, than before there was gay marriage.

Here again the research done by Stanley Kurtz does not agree with this interpretation. I will not insult and post tabloids on your religion because you disagree with me

The sooner we get religion out of the public sphere and into the private sphere the better our nation will be.

SS marriage can become established by removing the Judeo Christian values that this country was founded on. On the other end as religiosity declines the breakdown of the family grows as it is clearly explained in "the future of marriage in America study."

The religion/belief system will be replaced by another public one as we can see today.

 

[greymare]

so, then sol, what would you have gay and unmarried mothers do? Quickly find a partner, get married to satisfy your beliefs?

 

[wil]

SS marriage can become established by removing the Judeo Christian values that this country was founded on. On the other end as religiosity declines the breakdown of the family grows as it is clearly explained in "the future of marriage in America study."

The religion/belief system will be replaced by another public one as we can see today.

If I were to choose between the hypocritical religous right with the likes of our republican conservatives who rant against homosexuality while they are one, who refuse stimulus package money because it lacks integrity whilst spending the state coffers to commit adultery in Argentina, who write books on virtue while covorting with prostitutes and racking up gambling debts in Vegas....

The list goes on of self righteous do gooders who've tried to save our souls all the while behind the curtain....

I'll choose the upfront in my face drag queens, as I know exactly where they stand, despite their gender bending proclivities.

 

[citizenzen]

Hey! Even India's getting on board!

India gays win landmark ruling decriminalizing homosexual sex

Wow! Now that everybody's gay, I might as well be gay too!

WooOOOOoooOOoOoOooOoooooooooo!

(Just doing my part to drive Sloeil10 up the wall. WooOoo)

 

[Janz]

Hey! Even India's getting on board!

India gays win landmark ruling decriminalizing homosexual sex

Wow! Now that everybody's gay, I might as well be gay too!

WooOOOOoooOOoOoOooOoooooooooo!

(Just doing my part to drive Sloeil10 up the wall. WooOoo)

^ Yes, I believe that we are all gay and we choose to be heterosexual.

@Soleil10:

As far as attacking anyone..you may not believe in SS marriage but your cheap shots and vicious rantings about gays and lesbians have been mind blowing to me. I could not longer be quiet. I think if you are going to call human beings who are decent, law abiding, caring and compassionate citizens homofascist than what can you expect? How does it feel when someone calls you a religiofascist? I don't believe in turning the other cheek BTW..fighting fire with fire is my philosophy.

I respect that you disagree with ss marriage but NO ONE is forcing you or your loved ones to marry a gay person. However, you want to force the rest of us to live by your religious creed and that is what is driving your argument. We all need to be aware of each other's hidden agenda. Don't you agree?

As far as my sources go, I think that you will find that their interpretation of the facts from their years of research is far more accurate than Kurtz, who lets his subjective feelings interfere with reality. To begin with, my sources question Kurtz's logic. Expanding the eligibility of marriage, or a parallel institution, to same-sex couples who want to take on the civil obligations as well as the benefits of marriage does not logically undermine the institution of marriage. More important, the evidence from Scandinavia refutes rather than supports Kurtz's logic. Long-range trends in marriage rates, divorce rates, and nonmarital births either have been unaffected by the advent of same-sex partnerships or have moved in a direction that suggests that the institution of marriage is strengthening.

I think that changing the name of marriage to registered partnerships must confuse Kurtz. Also the National Marriage Project study from Rutgers claims to be a "nonpartisan, nonsectarian, interdisciplinary initiative," however, its reports and publications (such as Should We Live Together? ) primarily promote marriage over alternative family structures. So then they will be looking for any data that justifies their preference. Not objective either.

So to conclude, there are two sides of this debate and I think that as adults, we can now study both sides and make our own conclusion. That is why I offered another perspective to this issue.

PS..As far as religion goes, I don't really have one. I consider myself a Spiritualist with Universal leanings. Christianity is where I am grounded but my path is a solitary one.

 

[soleil10]

@Soleil10:As far as attacking anyone..you may not believe in SS marriage but your cheap shots and vicious rantings about gays and lesbians have been mind blowing to me. I could not longer be quiet. I think if you are going to call human beings who are decent, law abiding, caring and compassionate citizens homofascist than what can you expect?

Janz, you are taking my post out of context. The name of homofacism apply to the minority of gay activits that are using terror to impose their agenda. The great majority of caring, law abiding, compassionate human beings you are describing are not the ones I am talking about.

How does it feel when someone calls you a religiofascist? I don't believe in turning the other cheek BTW..fighting fire with fire is my philosophy.

You did call me that but I did not take it personaly because he does not apply to me.

You may want to go to www.familyfed.org or www.reverendsunmyungmoon.org and see a day and night picture of the links you posted trying to assasinte my character by association

I respect that you disagree with ss marriage but NO ONE is forcing you or your loved ones to marry a gay person. However, you want to force the rest of us to live by your religious creed and that is what is driving your argument.

America has lived that way since this inception. Who is forcing a redefinition of the foundamental marriage on the great majority of people ?

We are a nation founded in truth--moral truth--and sustained in that commitment by our faith that we have a Creator to whom we are responsible. Truth is bigger than any one of us. Truth is the foundation of justice itself.

Dr. Martin Luther King understood that in his bones. In his famous Letter from the Birmingham Jail in 1963, he wrote, "A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of Saint Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law."

Civil rights must be grounded in the eternal and natural law--the moral law that is not created by man and by which all of us are bound.

Justice must be grounded in truth. Same-sex unions are not marriages, and same-sex marriage is a misuse of the law: a civil wrong, not a civil right.

Brian Brown NOM.org

We all need to be aware of each other's hidden agenda. Don't you agree?As far as my sources go, I think that you will find that their interpretation of the facts from their years of research is far more accurate than Kurtz, who lets his subjective feelings interfere with reality. To begin with, my sources question Kurtz's logic. Expanding the eligibility of marriage, or a parallel institution, to same-sex couples who want to take on the civil obligations as well as the benefits of marriage does not logically undermine the institution of marriage.

I disagree

More important, the evidence from Scandinavia refutes rather than supports Kurtz's logic. Long-range trends in marriage rates, divorce rates, and nonmarital births either have been unaffected by the advent of same-sex partnerships or have moved in a direction that suggests that the institution of marriage is strengthening.

To claim that the institution of marriage is strenghtening is in itself quite a fraudulent claim. The author of your study play with the #s and misusing the facts. If it was true, it would be big news all over the media. Free sex, adultaries, incests, divorces, pornography, homosexuality, stds are all on the increase.

I think that changing the name of marriage to registered partnerships must confuse Kurtz. Also the National Marriage Project study from Rutgers claims to be a "nonpartisan, nonsectarian, interdisciplinary initiative," however, its reports and publications (such as Should We Live Together? ) primarily promote marriage over alternative family structures. So then they will be looking for any data that justifies their preference. Not objective either.

Of course for 99 % of the population marriage means marriage. Only 5% of homosexuals are even interested in ss nuptials.

 

[citizenzen]

Janz, you are taking my post out of context. The name of homofacism apply to the minority of gay activits that are using terror to impose their agenda. The great majority of caring, law abiding, compassionate human beings you are describing are not the ones I am talking about.

Soleil,

Why did it take you so long to provide context for your incendiary use of the term homofascist? I don't recall anywhere in your previous posts where you used the qualifying terms "minority of gay activits".

I certainly can't remember where you've described gays as "the great majority of caring, law abiding, compassionate human beings".

We didn't take your words out of context. You never supplied this spin...*ahem*... context. And at this point, any back-pedaling to try to explain away your use of hate speech seems disingenuous.

 

[soleil10]

Soleil,
Why did it take you so long to provide context for your incendiary use of the term homofascist? I don't recall anywhere in your previous posts where you used the qualifying terms "minority of gay activits".
I certainly can't remember where you've described gays as "the great majority of caring, law abiding, compassionate human beings".

In post 229 I wrote clearly that "the majority of homosexuals are not involved in intolerance and fascist activities"

We didn't take your words out of context. You never supplied this spin...*ahem*... context. And at this point, any back-pedaling to try to explain away your use of hate speech seems disingenuous.

At this point, I will accept your apologies. You have me all wrong citizen

 

[citizenzen]

In post 229 I wrote clearly that "the majority of homosexuals are not involved in intolerance and fascist activities"

At this point, I will accept your apologies. You have me all wrong citizen

Well, don't wait for any apology because it ain't coming. You made we look through the history of this thread on the off-chance that I did get you wrong and like I suspected, you're living in dream land. Shall we review?

Your first introduction of the term. No mention of it being a minority of the overall homosexual community...

06-03-2009, 12:40 PM post #116
Now if it is Nazism, Communism or Homofacism, they are all based on a flawed Godless ideology.​

06-04-2009, 05:33 PM Post #138
Exposing flawed ideologies like Nazism, Communism or Homofacism is not hating my enemy. Being silent in front of Homofacism is totally irresponsible especially for the future of our children.​

06-04-2009, 10:52 PM  Post#141
I just like to add that I have nothing personally against people who struggle with same sex attraction. They are the first victims of homofacism.​

To the direct question, What is "Homofacism"?, you answer...

06-06-2009, 12:29 PM Post#159
Homofacism is an ideology that want to break down biological parenting and spread gender confusion.

It basically wants to destroy the 2 biological parents child relationship, destroy the concept of blood lineage and descendants. It want to institutionalize one parent orphan "marriage"

Like Communism and Nazism, it wants to target children and youth first and infiltrate public schools, media and political spheres etc

It is against God's blueprint and design for the family. It wants to block God's love.

It will use deception, force and hide by playing the victim while accusing other of intolerance. It will misuse the concept of equality to gain superiority and become a legally select protected class.

Satan uses it to break up God's plan for humanity.

All humans want love. Love is the strongest force in the universe. Love can bring life or death if it is misused.​

To the question, Do you mean that we should not give homosexuals equal rights? you answer...

06-08-2009, 04:20 PM Post#174
Homosexuals have equal rights. They can marry. Redefining or hijacking marriage is a complete different issue. They should call it something else or they should refund every married couple their marriage licence and a new name for marriage should be created.

Forcing other people to change their world view and the meaning of their life is un-American. It is homofacism. It does not respect other. It violate equality itself.

Homosexuality and heterosexuality is like oil and water. They are opposite. I think homosexuality is totally sexist and reject the other half of humanity. Anyway, you are going to accuse me of gay bashing so I will stop here​

Finally, after 9 days and many opportunities to clarify your position you finally write...

06-12-2009, 04:38 AM Post#229
"I am not homophobe and the majority of homosexuals are not involved in intolerance and fascist activities but I have done my own research and seen with my own eyes what I am saying."​

By that point Soleil, it's back-pedaling. That's you putting on the old political spin to ward off condemnation that was building against you. Why did it take 9 days and over a dozen opportunities for you to finally attribute homofascism to a minority of the homosexual community? Were you unable to see how repugnant that phrase was to so many in the thread?

So please, if anybody owes an apology here it's you apologizing to us for dragging this thread through the muck of bigotry. Nice try, attempting to turn it around to where you're suddenly the victim. But that ain't playing here.

 

[soleil10]

Well, don't wait for any apology because it ain't coming. You made we look through the history of this thread on the off-chance that I did get you wrong and like I suspected, you're living in dream land. Shall we review?
Your first introduction of the term. No mention of it being a minority of the overall homosexual community..
06-03-2009, 12:40 PM post #116Now if it is Nazism, Communism or Homofacism, they are all based on a flawed Godless ideology.06-04-2009, 05:33 PM Post #138Exposing flawed ideologies like Nazism, Communism or Homofacism is not hating my enemy. Being silent in front of Homofacism is totally irresponsible especially for the future of our children.06-04-2009, 10:52 PM Post#141I just like to add that I have nothing personally against people who struggle with same sex attraction. They are the first victims of homofacism.To the direct question, What is "Homofacism"?, you answer...06-06-2009, 12:29 PMPost #159Homofacism is an ideology that want to break down biological parenting and spread gender confusion.It basically wants to destroy the 2 biological parents child relationship, destroy the concept of blood lineage and descendants. It want to institutionalize one parent orphan "marriage"Like Communism and Nazism, it wants to target children and youth first and infiltrate public schools, media and political spheres etcIt is against God's blueprint and design for the family. It wants to block God's love.It will use deception, force and hide by playing the victim while accusing other of intolerance. It will misuse the concept of equality to gain superiority and become a legally select protected class.Satan uses it to break up God's plan for humanity.All humans want love. Love is the strongest force in the universe. Love can bring life or death if it is misused.To the question, Do you mean that we should not give homosexuals equal rights? you answer...06-08-2009, 04:20 PM Post#174Homosexuals have equal rights. They can marry. Redefining or hijacking marriage is a complete different issue. They should call it something else or they should refund every married couple their marriage licence and a new name for marriage should be created.Forcing other people to change their world view and the meaning of their life is un-American. It is homofacism. It does not respect other. It violate equality itself.Homosexuality and heterosexuality is like oil and water. They are opposite. I think homosexuality is totally sexist and reject the other half of humanity. Anyway, you are going to accuse me of gay bashing so I will stop here. Finally, after 9 days and many opportunities to clarify your position you finally write...06-12-2009, 04:38 AM Post#229"I am not homophobe and the majority of homosexuals are not involved in intolerance and fascist activities but I have done my own research and seen with my own eyes what I am saying."By that point Soleil, it's back-pedaling. That's you putting on the old political spin to ward off condemnation that was building against you. Why did it take 9 days and over a dozen opportunities for you to finally attribute homofascism to a minority of the homosexual community? Were you unable to see how repugnant that phrase was to so many in the thread?

I can in the future emphasize more the point that the majority of homosexuals is silent and not acting as homofacist. My answer on post 229 was not back pedaling at all. I was just responding to a specific post.

All in all homofacism is very real and getting more prevalent. It will become common knowledge as it becomes more obvious that some gay activits asking for tolerance are intolerant and will punish you just for expressing your opinion.

 

[citizenzen]

All in all homofacism is very real and getting more prevalent. It will become common knowledge as it becomes more obvious that some gay activits asking for tolerance are intolerant and will punish you just for expressing your opinion.

It is sure to become common knowledge if a certain faction of fundamentalist Christians shout it from the roof tops as they see their grip on society weaken further. If you print enough bumper stickers and get on a few FAUX News shows, you might even get it into the public conversation.

As it is you're not even in wikipedia... and EVERYTHING is in wikipedia. You guys really need to get your act together. You're missing out on a lot of opportunities. You need somebody to do your publicity? I am in marketing...

 

[soleil10]

Here's a question for you, Soleil - how would you rank the following in order of importance as issues that need tackling, with the most urgent first?
- world peace
- tackling poverty
- addressing famine
- mortality rates among Third World children
- homosexuality
- marriage

My answer is marriage and family. The family is he school of love. Peace starts at home. The family is the best protection against powerty, lack of education,,,etc....etc.

As the family goes, so the nation.

 

[wil]

My answer is marriage and family. The family is he school of love. Peace starts at home. The family is the best protection against powerty, lack of education,,,etc....etc.

As the family goes, so the nation.

Namaste Soliel,

I can agree with that...

But this is an individual thing, I'll work on my family, which consists of myself and my two kids, it also includes my mom and my sister and her family. My kids have another family which consists of their mom and her boyfriend.

Now I've also got another family...that of my Aunts and Uncles and cousines and their kids... And another family of my friends and their families. And another family of my church friends...

Now amongst those their are some gay couples and some lesbian couples. Some of them are parents and grandparents...

A lot of love and peace in all those familes...and that is exactly the place to start at home.

 

[soleil10]

"God wanted to establish His lineage on earth through Jesus who was sinless and had the Godly seed. "
In the mundane, fleshly way? Says who? Says you?
Again, in the mundane, fleshly way? I don't agree. It's speculation at best, and contrary to the above scripture from Matthew 12. It clings to the flesh, rather than embracing the Spirit.

Throughout the whole bible we can see that at the moment of the human fall God lost His lineage. Adam and Eve children were born out of the garden. Our first ancestors became our false parents
Jesus even said that our father is Satan.

The role of the Messiah is to bring back God's lineage on earth and reconect humanity to that lineage.

What is established on earth is established in heaven.

The human fall happened in the mundane and fleshly way, Jesus was born in the mondane and fleshly way from a mother.

 

[soleil10]

It is sure to become common knowledge if a certain faction of fundamentalist Christians shout it from the roof tops as they see their grip on society weaken further. If you print enough bumper stickers and get on a few FAUX News shows, you might even get it into the public conversation.As it is you're not even in wikipedia... and EVERYTHING is in wikipedia. You guys really need to get your act together. You're missing out on a lot of opportunities. You need somebody to do your publicity? I am in marketing...

Citizen, I know you are laughing at me but there will come a time when people cannot help but see that denying masculinity and femininity is wrong.
As homosexuals make the fight for equality their battle cry, homosexuality itself is a behavior that destroys human rights and dignity. The devil insists on behaviors that are opposed to God and create a trap for his victims.
It is the same with free sex. We should not make love in a manner that is shameful to God. First love is meant to be eternal.

 

[seattlegal]

Throughout the whole bible we can see that at the moment of the human fall God lost His lineage. Adam and Eve children were born out of the garden. Our first ancestors became our false parents
Jesus even said that our father is Satan.

The role of the Messiah is to bring back God's lineage on earth and reconect humanity to that lineage.

What is established on earth is established in heaven.

Scriptural references, please.

The human fall happened in the mundane and fleshly way, Jesus was born in the mondane and fleshly way from a mother.

Yes. However there is this scripture which needs to reconciled with your interpretation:

Luke 20
27 Some (AH) of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, (AI) came up and questioned Him: 28 "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother has a wife, and dies childless, his brother should take the wife and produce offspring for his brother. (AJ) (AK) 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife and died without children. 30 Also the second [m] 31 and the third took her. In the same way, all seven died and left no children. 32 Finally, the woman died too. 33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife will the woman be? For all seven had married her." [n] 34 Jesus told them, "The sons of this age (AL) marry and are given in marriage. (AM) 35 But those who are counted worthy (AN) to take part in that age (AO) and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. 36 For they cannot die anymore, (AP) because they are like angels and are sons of God, (AQ) since they are sons of the resurrection. 37 Moses even indicated [in the passage] about the burning bush that the dead are raised, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. (AR) (AS) 38 He is not God of the dead but of the living, because all are living to [o] Him." (AT)
39 Some of the scribes answered, "Teacher, You have spoken well." 40 And they no longer dared to ask Him anything.

The Question about the Messiah

41 Then (AU) He said to them, "How can they say that the Messiah is the Son of David? (AV) 42 For David himself says in the Book of Psalms: (AW) The Lord declared to my Lord,
'Sit at My right hand
43 until I make Your enemies Your footstool. (AX) ' (AY)
44 David calls Him 'Lord'; how then can the Messiah be his Son?" (AZ)​

 

[wil]

It is the same with free sex. We should not make love in a manner that is shameful to God. First love is meant to be eternal.

Ok lets go with that...

So without the 'fall' would Adam and Eve had children? If so who would those children have create children with? Who did her children have sex with to create their children?

Now all of the above was not shameful to G!d right? And prior to the fall and creation of Eve, you still haven't explained the acceptance of beastiality, as Adam tried all the animals and couldn't find a good helpmeet.

We've got a choice, literal or metaphor? The literal doesn't fit your paradigm.

 

[soleil10]

Ok lets go with that...
So without the 'fall' would Adam and Eve had children? If so who would those children have create children with? Who did her children have sex with to create their children?
Now all of the above was not shameful to G!d right? And prior to the fall and creation of Eve, you still haven't explained the acceptance of beastiality, as Adam tried all the animals and couldn't find a good helpmeet.
We've got a choice, literal or metaphor? The literal doesn't fit your paradigm.

If Adam had waited to reach maturity before eating the fruit their marriage would had been blessed by God. They would not have been kicked out of the garden. There would not have been any human fall, no original sin and no need for religion or a Messiah. Adam & Eve lineage would have been God's lineage.

God wanted to be at the center of their marriage and family.

 

[seattlegal]

If Adam had waited to reach maturity before eating the fruit their marriage would had been blessed by God. They would not have been kicked out of the garden. There would not have been any human fall, no original sin and no need for religion or a Messiah. Adam & Eve lineage would have been God's lineage.

God wanted to be at the center of their marriage and family.

Scriptural reference, please.