Let's get real about Bible stories...!

Penelope

Penelope

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[SIZE=+1]Zeke, the Loud-mouth[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]One finds them in every culture and in every age of human history. The Rush Limbaughs who yap all day long, day in and day out about any and every bug that has gotten up their ass. To a handful of individuals, he speaks the divine word incarnate. One of those cranks who believes he has a pipeline to God. To most, he is just a noisy nuisance, if not an out and out joke - an embarrassment to the good name of one's society.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]The world is at peace. Zeke's people are getting along well with neighboring peoples - meaning that commerce is thriving. Many of Zeke's friends and colleagues are doing well. Getting rich. Which means that the society, within which Zeke lives, is prospering. Rich and poor alike, Zeke's people and neighboring peoples, all are doing better. Life is good. And this should make Zeke happy, that God is smiling on his people.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]But no. Zeke dislikes just about everything he sees, going on around him. Sinful, abhorrently sinful ways. And if he dislikes it, then certainly God must similarly disapprove. And one thing in particular agitates Zeke's ire. So much so that Zeke devotes all of Chapter 16 of his journal to this rancorous peeve. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Many of the now rich merchants in Zeke's circle can suddenly afford to feed their family a healthy diet and provide each of them with nice clothing - the woman-folk also. Many have taken to educating their daughters - permitting their unmarried young ladies to travel beyond the walls of home and village, to meet and socialize with neighboring peoples. What Zeke finds contemptible is that these young ladies have developed a mind of their own. And they have fun. Only heathen women are that way. God-fearing women, to Zeke, must remain dumb, somber, and obedient.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Many of these unmarried ladies have set up an apartment away from their village, where she can entertain guests. Healthy and smart and well-traveled and open-minded, these young women and the cultural salons they sponsor are popular with the smart set. Many of these single women have affairs with men from a neighboring people as well as with men from her own people. And, as you can imagine, this is just too much for Zeke.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]They spread their legs to every passer-by ... Egyptians ... Assyrians ... Chaldeans ...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]The trouble, for Zeke, is that he knows the ancient and sacred laws of his people. These free-thinking women are not married, so - under this Law - Zeke can not lay the charge of adultery at their door. Likewise, no one in their circle of friends – and, in particular, none of their male admirers and lovers, paid them a single farthing. Paid them nothing (save complements). So neither could Zeke charge them with prostitution. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Zeke does not know what charge to nail them with that will stand up under the sanctified umbrella of the Law, so what does Zeke do? He tells everybody that God had told him – told him personally - a new law (i.e. Zeke made something up):[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Thus I will judge them like women 'who commit adultery' or 'who shed blood' are judged...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]With the help of his diehard confederates, Zeke is patient and thorough in the stalking of his prize. Targeting each of these young women, one by one, Zeke plays private detective. He follow each young lady in her travels, peeps in her apartment windows at night, sleuthing out a list of her beaus over many years' time. Finally when the list is long, he will make his move.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Zeke will give the complete list to each of the woman's beaus, will gather this woman's gentlemen callers all together, and will rabble rouse them to... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]jealousy and rage, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]so that... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]they will tear down her private apartments, strip her of her clothing, take away her jewels, and will leave her naked and bare. They will incite a crowd against her and they will stone her and cut her to pieces with their swords.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]This is a nutty plan. But it just might have worked.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]But before Zeke's plan can be brought to satisfying conclusion, Babylon's army overruns the land of Zeke's people and that of the neighboring peoples. The Babylonians haul off all the well-to-do of Zeke's people - plus the artisans and intelligentsia – taking them to the imperial capital to serve Babylon's emperor, leaving back in the homeland only the poorest amongst Zeke's people. Zeke also is taken to Babylon. But, for Zeke, this all proves to be a blessing in disguise.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]God has punished our people, Zeke rants. Sinful, abhorrently sinful ways. Finally, more of his contemporaries listen. And as a consequence, Zeke's flaky (perhaps unbalanced) scribblings find their way into the sacred texts of Zeke's people. [/SIZE]
Click to expand...


- Ezekiel 16
​

 
penelope,

if you're going to cut and paste, you should attribute the quote, for reasons of copyright. also, that is a really loud font, please tone it down if you want people to read your posts.

and what is your point - you don't like ezekiel? needless to say, i don't recognise this characterisation of his message. you are not exactly basing it in the text.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Ezekiel 16:20-22, 35-43
20 "You even took your sons and daughters you bore to Me and sacrificed them to these images as food. (P) Wasn't your prostitution enough? 21 You slaughtered My children and gave them up when you passed them through [the fire] (Q) to the images. 22 In all your abominations and acts of prostitution, you did not remember the days of your youth (R) when you were stark naked and lying in your blood.
<...>
35 "Therefore, you prostitute, hear the word of the LORD! 36 This is what the Lord GOD says: Because your lust was poured out and your nakedness exposed by your acts of prostitution with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols and the blood of your children that you gave to them, (Z) 37 I am therefore going to gather all the lovers you pleased (AA) —all those you loved as well as all those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and expose your nakedness (AB) to them so they see you completely naked. 38 I will judge you the way adulteresses and those who shed blood are judged. (AC) Then I will bring about your bloodshed in wrath and jealousy. (AD) 39 I will hand you over to them, and they will level your mounds and tear down your elevated places. They will strip off your clothes, (AE) take your beautiful jewelry, and leave you stark naked. 40 They will bring a mob against you (AF) to stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords. 41 Then they will burn down your houses and execute judgments against you in the sight of many women. I will stop you from being a prostitute, (AG) and you will never again pay fees for lovers. 42 So I will satisfy My wrath against you, (AH) and My jealousy will turn away from you. Then I will be silent and no longer angry. 43 Because you did not remember the days (AI) of your youth but enraged Me with all these things, I will also bring your actions down on your own head." (AJ) [This is] the declaration of the Lord GOD . "Haven't you committed immoral acts in addition to all your abominations?
​
Well heck, what would you do if your neighbor was killing children and offering them as burnt sacrifice to "god?" The neighbors would probably rally together to put a stop to this, no? That's exactly what was happening in Israel, and it is by no means what one would call a godly act, no?

{If I'm mistaken in my interpretation, please set me straight!}
 
bb, Marsh,
Ezekiel in Chapter 16 is spinning an allegory.

I'm not a moron. I get that.
(Give me some credit here.)
The luxurious woman, which God's-intermediary-Ezekiel addresses, is not a person. She is a symbol for all Jerusalem – rich and prosperous and reverting to pagan ways. At least, in Ezekiel's mind. The infant city which God picked up from the dirt of the desert, then clothed in riches and made mighty. And which is now turning away from God.
This story Ezekiel spins is a product of poetic license. Is literature.

Literature is, by definition, fiction. I am not interested in "literature," where the Bible is concerned.
I am interested in truth.

Where is the truth here?

Where did Ezekiel get his imagery from? It is pretty obvious, if you do a close reading. There is a lot of anger in him. And he keeps slipping out of his metaphor. (Does Ezekiel really want to stone the city to death? Destroy Jerusalem? No.) Ezekiel wants to destroy the luxury. And he blames women for it.

It is quite clear that Jewish women are considerably more powerful now, in 600bce, than they were in Moses' time. Ezekiel hates their clothes, their jewelry, their ability to travel, their independent life-style. He didn't make that stuff up out of thin air. Ezekiel saw it on the streets of Jerusalem everyday. His imagery is too vivid for it to be otherwise. Ezekiel wants to turn the clock back to the good-old-days of deprivation, when men's wickedness was more worrisome than woman's legal - but seemingly sinful - ways. Turn the clock far back in time when women were invisible, because women didn't even have a stake in Jewish society.

Ezekiel's fear of women's new power, his deep resentment of it.
This is the subtext of Chapter 16, as I read it. This is its truth.

To your mind, maybe I've missed the story, because I passed on the surface story and wrote its subtext instead. You may care most about the literal story - the literature (the poetry, the fiction) - here. You may have no desire to dig and question. So you scoff, instead, at my strategy for doing so?

(What have you got to fear from a close reading of the text? What have you got to lose? What have you got to fear from my text, that you don't also have to fear from the text I derived it from? What have you got to fear from giving my text a fair and thoughtful reading?)

Am I wrong to have assumed that you, like I ...
Care about the truth ... ?

& & &

(Apologies bb, Marsh,
I should have let my feelings cool another day.
I didn't mean to slam back so hard.
I am new here.
I felt like I had something to say with my Ezekiel piece.
{Its writing style - the surface glibness - was a stylistic choice, to make the piece entertaining. But I'm dead serious about the content.}
It hurts to feel I am ... not taken seriously.
P.)
 
Penelope said:
bb, Marsh,
Ezekiel in Chapter 16 is spinning an allegory.

I'm not a moron. I get that.
(Give me some credit here.)
The luxurious woman, which God's-intermediary-Ezekiel addresses, is not a person. She is a symbol for all Jerusalem – rich and prosperous and reverting to pagan ways. At least, in Ezekiel's mind. The infant city which God picked up from the dirt of the desert, then clothed in riches and made mighty. And which is now turning away from God.
This story Ezekiel spins is a product of poetic license. Is literature.

Literature is, by definition, fiction. I am not interested in "literature," where the Bible is concerned.
I am interested in truth.

Where is the truth here?

Where did Ezekiel get his imagery from? It is pretty obvious, if you do a close reading. There is a lot of anger in him. And he keeps slipping out of his metaphor. (Does Ezekiel really want to stone the city to death? Destroy Jerusalem? No.) Ezekiel wants to destroy the luxury. And he blames women for it.

It is quite clear that Jewish women are considerably more powerful now, in 600bce, than they were in Moses' time. Ezekiel hates their clothes, their jewelry, their ability to travel, their independent life-style. He didn't make that stuff up out of thin air. Ezekiel saw it on the streets of Jerusalem everyday. His imagery is too vivid for it to be otherwise. Ezekiel wants to turn the clock back to the good-old-days of deprivation, when men's wickedness was more worrisome than woman's legal - but seemingly sinful - ways. Turn the clock far back in time when women were invisible, because women didn't even have a stake in Jewish society.

Ezekiel's fear of women's new power, his deep resentment of it.
This is the subtext of Chapter 16, as I read it. This is its truth.

P.)
Click to expand...


This is one of the most ironic posts I've read lately. You said that you are interested in truth, but by focusing on what you call subtext (which is a literary feature, which is fiction, as you yourself said), you abandon the truth of the Bible in favour of what's on your own mind. You've acknowledged that Ezekiel is writing allegorically, and yet he somehow by the end of your post, he becomes a chauvinist who's afraid of the "liberated Israelite woman" (?) of the 6th century BC, and is pushing an agenda.

I don't think Ezekiel is afraid of women; I think that it is you yourself who is, ironically, paranoid of male authors. You're making up a whole bunch of stuff in order to "prove" that Ezekiel is secretly writing about how much he hates women, when in fact the allegory he is using was given to him by God. See, Ezekiel was a prophet, yeah? Which means his message is a transmission from God, yeah? Which means if the imagery is misogynist, then God is the one you should be throwing your birkenstock at :p

Compare Ezekiel's writing to other similar passages in the Bible (i.e. Revelation 2 & 3), and you'll see that this allegory is not particular to Ezekiel.
 
Hey, Penelope. This passage actually does support feminism.

While it may appear that Ezekiel has some kind of low-brow disrespect for women, this passage indicates the open dialogue about women at the time this was written. This 'Open dialogue' goes both ways. Scripture has complaints about women as well as praise for them, but the overriding principle is accepting reality about men & women and making the best of it which can be very helpful in understanding and supporting feminist issues.

The cliff's notes all say, as you have said, that this woman represents Jerusalem -- but actually 'The adulteress' is an already established Biblical type which Ezekiel is applying to Jerusalem. 'The adulteress' is a common motif in Genesis through Deuteronomy, the most famous instance being Tamar. In Jesus encounter with the Pharisees & an unnamed adulterous, you can see a strong allusion to Judah & Tamar(Gen 38:24, John 8:10). The woman of Ezekiel 16 is best understood when overlaid as a template upon other Biblical women accused of adultery -- all of the 'Tamars' Before going into that, try looking at the continuous tradition. First look how this passage in Ezekiel is treated in Jesus teaching about Israel -- and about women as well. His treatment is representative and can be used as a telescope into past attitudes about women. Note how his refusal to condemn is closely tied to his teaching about light -- the centerpiece of all of the Bible.

John 8:10-12 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jesus chooses adultery as his main teaching point about light! In doing so he leans upon (rather than throwing out) all adultery related passages that came before him! Just as in Ezekiel, the women is never condemned. Instead, she is too valuable to condemn and this reflects the traditional position of how accused woman are to be treated in Scripture. They always get off on the technicality that they are the givers of life (man's point of view). In fact, vs. 52 could be an allusion to Jacob's two wives, Leah and Rachel.

All of this is why Ezekiel selects the 'Adulterous wife' type to represent Jerusalem, to give his listeners a feeling that they need to return to God rather than implying to them that they've been cut off. They had not been cut off, but they had been very naughty. Ezekiel 16:60 ends with "60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish with you an everlasting covenant."
 

Thank you, Marsh.
Thank you, Dream.
I appreciate that you took a careful look at my words, and have taken the time to give me a thoughtful reply.

New to the site, I'm getting the feeling I posted this thread in the wrong place.

Be that as it may ...

& & &

Marsh,
The Bible is a book to me.
One that I am interested in.
But a book like any other book.

How much research am I willing to invest in it?
I do not know, for instance, if Ezekiel even existed or not.
Is there any independent evidence (outside the Bible) that he did?
(Say in Babylonian records?)
You see, I don't myself know. But it seems, to me, like an important question to ask.

There are a multitude of people, places, and events in the Bible which have been verified by archeology.
But there is also much that couldn't possibly have happened, too.
("The Joshua invasion as it is described in the Bible was never really a historical event." - Amihai Mazar, Israeli archeologist.)

For the time, I have to assume Ezekiel did exist.
If the only evidence about Ezekiel and his era is, in fact, that of the Bible, what does that evidence tell us?
As a modern reader, you heard what Chapter 16 told me.
You did not offer any evidence to the contrary.
Whose opinion is true? Yours or mine?

Ezekiel is described as "a prophet."
What does that mean?
1. That he genuinely "saw into the future"?
2. That he is a madman (a paranoid schizophrenic)?
3. That he is conservative moralist?
4. Or just a "loud mouth" as I describe him.

I was testing out one possibility.
I could test out the others.

(I suppose it could be argued, Chapter 38 - "Valley of Dry Bones," that Ezekiel anticipated modern genetics. He foresaw a time when the dead Jewish people - their bones scraped for DNA and put in test-tubes - are then brought back to life. Or, rather, a genetic clone of the original person. Do we, today, cite Ezekiel as a religious reference in support of human cloning? J)

"His message is a transmission from God."
We have only Ezekiel's word for it. Hundreds of thousands of schizophrenics down through the ages have made this claim.
Did they all have a pipeline to God?
If not, what makes Ezekiel different?
Historical evidence? (His predications came true, say?)
Evidence internal within the text? (Some passages that demonstrate a wise and insightful understanding of the human soul? Like you find in the Gospels?)

All I see is "literature," Marsh. (Possibly bad literature.)
I don't see the truth beneath the literature.

And, so far, you have not shown me an avenue to that truth.
(I, at least, have tried to lay out a path to the truth - the truth to be found in Chapter 16. I have taken my reading one step beyond opinion. Is that something you are willing to do, too?)

(SUBTEXT: If you are up on your Poststructuralist writers, you will know that "subtext" is an extra-literary feature. It refers to social or historical or journalistic or scientific truth outside the literary text in question.)

& & &

Dream,
This is very helpful what you say.

You are claiming, if I got this correct, that Ezekiel is utilizing a time-honored rhetorical strategy to nudge the straying Jewish people back onto the righteous path.

The "adulteress woman" is a literary conceit with a deep cultural history. It is an age-old image which helps bend the listener's ear to Ezekiel's message. And it is a complex, plastic image. Malleable. In one instant it means "you are being bad." In the next instant, it means "you are capable of being forgiven."

Very fluid symbolism. That's cool.
(Was Jewish culture that sophisticated then?)

This sounds, Dream, like Postmodern esthetic theory (or one major branch of it).
T.S. Eliot in his fin de siecle poetry and James Joyce in his novels of the collective unconscious used this precise literary conceit. Except utilizing global literary traditions as layer upon layer of internal reference.

If this is Ezekiel's strategy too, but more narrowly within the Jewish literary tradition, then ...
1. I can begin to appreciate what he is doing.
2. This is a literary conceit (Postmodern theory) I disapprove of.

Many Postmodern writers on the Visual Arts claim that art only refers to art only refers to art only refers to art.
Art is a closed room - containing all past triumphs of artist genius - but there are no windows.
Nothing exists outside of the tradition.
No "reality."
No truth.

Likewise Ezekiel, the way you have described his rhetorical method, Dream.
There is no (independent) truth for Ezekiel. Only continuity of (here, Jewish literary) tradition.

There is only "literature," if you accept this manner of interpreting Ezekiel's message. (Nothing to learn that you don't know already - from "the tradition.")
There is no truth.

That is unacceptable to me, Dream.

(Without truth, there is no genuine meaning to any of this.
In that sense, there is no Revelation. There is no God.)

At least, in my disrespectful way, I am scratching about for truth.
(Somewhere in the Bible, I expect to find it.)
 
[SIZE=+1]Sam the Bully[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Sam the Bully is hot to get into the pants of this pretty red-headed gal. She is not a local gal, but lives in the neighboring region. She snubs Sam's advances, so Sam heads to the town just up the road from hers. He hides in the shadows, waylays a wealthy young man there, and kills him. Sam steals the young dandy's cash, his fine clothes, and other belongings. But dressing in this classy guy's duds and spending his money does not make much of an impression upon the red-headed gal. So Sam returns to that town just up the road, waylays and kills another young gent for his clothes and his money. Then another, and another. The gal still snubs him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]People back in his home region try to council Sam the Bully – gently, because they also fear him. They point out to Sam that genuine prosperity comes from hard work, pointing to vast fields of grain cultivated by the neighbors. It is that which truly impresses women, they gently suggest to Sam. Sam travels again to the neighboring region, and looks and looks at these vast fields of grain.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Sam the Bully does not see what is so impressive about these fields. And to prove the idea in his mind, Sam sneaks out one night and sets the land-owner's field of grain afire, destroying the crop just before it is to be harvested. That makes Sam feel better. Where is this guy's prosperity now? He is no chick-magnet any longer. But after a couple days, the exaltation wears off. He sees other wealthy land-owners in this region, also with vast fields of grain, ready for harvest. These fields seem to be mocking Sam, laughing at him. So Sam the Bully burns crop after crop after crop as far as Sam's legs will take him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Two cops catch up with Sam. And they tell Sam the Bully that he is under arrest for murder and arson. That he has to come with them and answer for these charges. But Sam looks at the cops with their puny billy-clubs and laughs with disgust. Sam grabs a bigger club and whacks both cops to death. More cops arrive, and even Sam realizes he is outnumbered. So Sam retreats to a cave, with a narrow opening.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]The cops call into the cave for Sam the Bully to surrender, to make his case before a judge. Sam scoffs. Due to the narrow opening in the cave entrance, only one cop can get thru at a time. Soon as the first cop sticks his head thru, Sam whacks him good with the heavy bones of an animal skeleton found there. The cop screams, but Sam the Bully whacks the cop again and again until the cop is dead. Then Sam pulls the cop's corpse inside the cave and waits for the next cop. In this manner, Sam the Bully kills cop after cop all thru the day. The cops cut their losses, decide to surround the cave, and wait.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Sam, now, gets thirsty. Sam the Bully angrily bangs the walls of the cave with his animal skeleton. Cursing loudly. When Sam calms, he sits down and mopes. But, calmed now, Sam notices water oozing from the walls, as happens in caves. Sam tears fabric from the cops' uniforms – the portions not bloody – and presses them against the cave walls. This soaks up water. Sam squeezes the water into his mouth. When he finally quenches his thirst, Sam laughs. Realizing that his cursing scares even caves into complying to his wishes, he realizes that he is a leader. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Sam slips away in the night and heads back across the border into his home region. Sam the Bully decides to run for governor of the region, browbeating and threatening his way into getting elected. This now makes Sam the Bully exempt from extradition to the neighboring region. Sam now grafts his way into becoming a wealthy man, without the need of physical labor. And due to his newly-won prestige, Sam gets all the women he wants.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]After many years as governor and judge of his region, Sam the Bully becomes a hero in the eyes of many from the younger generation, due to Sam's legendary defiance of authority. Sam is now popular enough that he does not need to rig the elections and extort his victory. But life is getting too easy for Sam. He begins to feel lethargic.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]The cops in the neighboring region have placed a longstanding bounty on Sam the Bully for his arrest, if he ever steps foot outside the boundaries of his home region. But Sam is safe as long as he does not travel abroad. But Sam is bored.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]One day, a seductive red-haired woman – who is passing thru Sam's home region – catches Sam the Bully's eye. Sam cannot get enough of the woman's red hair. So Sam follows her across the frontier. His intention is to have this woman and slip back inside his home territory before anyone realizes he is gone. Then the woman begins to afflict him, and his strength leaves him. But every time Sam prepares to leave this woman, she waves her red hair in his face. Sam decides to stay one more night. His hairline begins to precipitously recede. After forty days of one-more-night, Sam is so sapped of energy he cannot walk. Sam the Bully cannot even stand up.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]The cops arrive. They throw Sam the Bully in chains. The cops nod their thanks to the woman, as she begins to wash the red dye from her hair. Once she finishes, the cops pay-out to Delilah a generous reward.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1](Postscript: An earthquake strikes the town where Sam is being held. His body is found in the debris. Sam the Bully has died before he could be brought to trial.)[/SIZE]
Click to expand...

- Judges 14-16
​
 
Head buried in dusty texts all day, ruining your eyes peering at that small typeface ... Your mother ought to box your ears, TE.

If the typeface bugs you, look to your own writing, my son ...
You use the same font as I. Yes, TE ... "Verdana."

And, yeah, most of the guys I know ... prefer to see the world in black & white, too.
(Why is that?)

"Teal" is a very gentle color.
If a world of color and gentleness nauseates you ... GOOD ! !

J
 
well what does the Bible say ?

let us see

2 Corinthians 3:12-17 (New International Version)


12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
Click to expand...
so only those who are born again those who have Christ dwelling in their hearts :) will ever understand the Bible, and it is that same Christ the Word of God that created the entire universe and everything it that dwells in our hearts, pretty amazing YES.


so what time is it now ?



Matthew 3:1-3 (New International Version)

1In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." 3This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.'
Click to expand...
 
Penelope said:
If a world of color and gentleness nauseates you ... GOOD ! !
Click to expand...

A fighter. I like that.

Don't you go changing just to please somebody else.

Your "teal" looks pretty close to "Lucite Green". Girlfriend, you are on the cutting edge!


Web Color Trends — Spring 2009
citizenzen-albums-my-silly-stuff-picture1007-webcolortrends-sp2009.jpeg
 
Penelope said:
Dream,
Click to expand...
Penelope said:
This is very helpful what you say.

You are claiming, if I got this correct, that Ezekiel is utilizing a time-honored rhetorical strategy to nudge the straying Jewish people back onto the righteous path.

The "adulteress woman" is a literary conceit with a deep cultural history. It is an age-old image which helps bend the listener's ear to Ezekiel's message. And it is a complex, plastic image. Malleable. In one instant it means "you are being bad." In the next instant, it means "you are capable of being forgiven."

Very fluid symbolism. That's cool.
(Was Jewish culture that sophisticated then?)

This sounds, Dream, like Postmodern esthetic theory (or one major branch of it).
T.S. Eliot in his fin de siecle poetry and James Joyce in his novels of the collective unconscious used this precise literary conceit. Except utilizing global literary traditions as layer upon layer of internal reference.

If this is Ezekiel's strategy too, but more narrowly within the Jewish literary tradition, then ...
1. I can begin to appreciate what he is doing.
2. This is a literary conceit (Postmodern theory) I disapprove of.

Many Postmodern writers on the Visual Arts claim that art only refers to art only refers to art only refers to art.
Art is a closed room - containing all past triumphs of artist genius - but there are no windows.
Nothing exists outside of the tradition.
No "reality."
No truth.

Likewise Ezekiel, the way you have described his rhetorical method, Dream.
There is no (independent) truth for Ezekiel. Only continuity of (here, Jewish literary) tradition.

There is only "literature," if you accept this manner of interpreting Ezekiel's message. (Nothing to learn that you don't know already - from "the tradition.")
There is no truth.

That is unacceptable to me, Dream.

(Without truth, there is no genuine meaning to any of this.
In that sense, there is no Revelation. There is no God.)

At least, in my disrespectful way, I am scratching about for truth.
(Somewhere in the Bible, I expect to find it.)
Click to expand...
Maybe we have started with a difficult passage. The, uh, truth is I am not sure what you mean by scratching around. I really hope you don't expect me to defend the concept of God. I merely point out that 'Zeke is not likely to have been anti-woman because of the tradition (yes including a complex literary tradition). He is not saying that women are evil or should not have freedom. That is not the truth you can get out of this passage. Zeke is saying Israel of his day left the right way, left reason in the sand. She left a reasonable husband, not an unreasonable one.

The trouble between men and women is automatic. We men get annoyed with women sometimes because we don't like being corrected, though we often benefit from said correction. We don't like being told. We like this about a woman but not that. It goes both ways. This is one source of all kinds of tension between the sexes, a truth -- an understood truth in Ezekiels culture. We cannot have this without that and must learn to appreciate that both are good. It is just like I cannot talk to you without the color teal being involved. To stem the suffering that comes from such true facts of life, we get married. We learn to appreciate the good things in life, instead of criticizing all the time. We smile just because its a sunny day instead of griping about the heat.
 
I am not saying it would be OK to criticize someone for canceling a marriage. That is not your business or mine, and that is not what Ezekiel is saying. The L-RD is saying Israel has left a wealthy, good looking, loving and reasonable spouse - the L-RD. Who in their right mind would want to leave under those circumstances, but that is what Israel was doing. He is calling for them to return.
 

Dream

You have nice poetry to the way you talk.
Makes me want to believe, trust the validity of everything you say.
Relax. Enjoy life.
Go with it.

Boy - in high school - got me that way.
Very alluring voice. Apologies that I seem compelled to keep asking just a few more questions ... before I bite down on your very-tempting bait, Dream. I keep looking for the hook.

But keep it up anyway.
I love listening to the lyricism of your voice.

& & &

("Scratching around" - this isn't about Feminism, or man/woman, or whether Ezekiel is a misogynist or not. Whatever it is about ... it goes deeper!!)
 
My name is Connie

Hi. I'm Connie.
This sort of starts out as a sweet story.

I come from Jerusalem. Well, Dad lives there.
I've been kind of hanging out in Bethlehem.
I meet this Levi guy. Country kid.
He's young and kind of sweet.
He talks me into going back with him to his ranch, in the Ephraim Hills.

But once there, it gets to be a drag - pretty quick.
Ya know?
There's Levi. There's Levi's herd. Then next door, more of Levi's herd. And in the neighborhood in the other direction? ... You guessed it. More herd.
It's just Levi, me, and ... uh, the herd.
(Well, Levi does have a servant kid. So not much work I need to do.)
Life here? ... Like, boring!
But figure Levi will marry me. Sell some of his herd, get a second place in the city.
Doesn't happen. (Months pass, couple years - nothing!)

Drifter passes thru.
Get to talking with him. Talking and ...
Well maybe we do something we shouldn't have.
Can't face Levi. (But his kid servant'll snitch, for sure.)

Hitch a ride with the drifter back to town.
Dad puts me up. Need to figure things out.

What do you know?
Yeah.
Levi arrives with his servant and two donkeys.
(You'd think he'd bring three mules if he wanted me to go back with him.)
Levi isn't angry. Surprise of surprises. He is real sweet and tender.
He and Pop get along fine.

I have till morning to decide. That's when Levi says he heads home.
A full day's journey.
But next morning Pop talks Levi into hanging around, and drinking, and stuff, with him. They become great buddies. So I have another day before the moment of truth. Next morning same thing happens. So come the fifth morning and we don't leave, I figure I have another day to figure my options.
But round noon, Levi says he's leaving. Definite.
I have to decide on the spot.

Pop hands me my bag already packed.
"Connie. You are Levi's responsibility now. Not mine."

Not halfway back to the Ephraim Hills, it is turning dark.
The servant points to the town of Jebus.
"I won't stay with filthy Canaanites." (People not of our race.)
So we press on, to Gibeah. (Benjaminite town.)
"Uhf. But at least we have the same color skin."
But no one offers lodging. So we settle down by the well.
Old Ephraim suddenly appears, geezer from Levi's countryside.
But been living in Gibeah. Invites us to stay, at his place. Nice guy.
His teenage daughter Molina helps me settle in.

Once down for the night, there comes a ruckus outside. Gang of toughs are banging on the door. Old Ephraim answers.
"Bring out the man (Levi) who came into your house so we can have relations with him," I hear them say. With Levi? Who are these guys?!
But the old man, bless his heart, protests.
"The man Levi is a guest in my house. Please do not dishonor me."
He shuts the door but the gang pounds, louder still.
Old Ephraim calls thru the door.
"Here is my virgin daughter (Molina) and the man's concubine (Connie). Please let me bring them out that you may ravage them and do to them whatever you wish. But do not commit an act of folly against this man (Levi)."
The toughs keep pounding on the door.
In the dark of the bedroom, suddenly someone grabs me and tosses me out into the courtyard. The toughs abuse me and gang-rape me, continuously, through the night.

Nearing dawn. They leave.
I crawl to the stoop of Old Ephraim's door, half-dead.
But no one opens to let me in and care for me.
Not Levi. Not Old Ephraim.
Dehydrated, I go into shock. By cock's crow I am dead.

"Get up. Let's go," Levi says to my corpse, packing the donkeys to leave.
No answer from me? ... Like, duh!
Levi throws my carcass over the donkey and heads home.
Once home, Levi grabs a kitchen knife and cuts my cadaver in twelve pieces, limb by limb, and mails them throughout the country, to each of the twelve tribes.

The twelve tribes are incensed at this crime against Levi.
They demand that their Benjaminite brothers hand over the culprits who committed this vile insult to Levi's dignity.
(They could go ask Old Ephraim for the gang-members' names. But no.)
These are men. And men are always spoiling for a fight. Any old excuse will do.
(War, of course, comes.)

I have been just a pawn in all this.
(In the letter he sent ... ?
The one soiled by my rotting flesh ... Levi does not even see fit to mention me by name.)
My name is Connie. My name is Connie.
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- Judges 19-20
​
 
Penelope said:
All I see is "literature," Marsh. (Possibly bad literature.)
I don't see the truth beneath the literature.

And, so far, you have not shown me an avenue to that truth.

(Without truth, there is no genuine meaning to any of this.
In that sense, there is no Revelation. There is no God.)
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What a crock! I haven't shown you the truth? How can one person show another person the truth? The very concept indicates that you are not interested in finding any truth, Penelope; you're just interested in deconstructing scripture as if it were paperback fiction. The Bible is an avenue to spiritual truths, but have you read it? Have you come to it with an open mind, read it, and then tested it? Or have you come to it with the end already decided upon?

Prophets are people who have spoken words God has given them to speak. If Ezekiel had not proven himself to be a prophet to the people of his time, why would his words still be on record after thousands of years?

Ah, but then you'd say that you're not convinced that Ezekiel even existed. Actually, I think it's clear that you are convinced that he did not exist, because God does not exist, and if there is no God then there can be no prophets so there can be no Ezekiel.

Stop beating around the bush and come out and say what you mean for God's (who does not exist) sake!
 
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