Spiritual Side to Islam ?

I think there's a spiritual side to just about any major world religion. You just have to look for it in the right places.

But I am not here to judge GTG.

What am I going to say of people leaving Christianity because they think it's illogical, unintuitive and intellectually/philosophically/spiritually lacking? Personally, I think people who leave a religion and find something even better in another religion do it not because the original religion was really lacking. It is fine with me if they didn't see the depth in the original religion. Their journey led them somewhere else.

Christians have their prejudices about Islam and Muslims have their prejudices about Christianity. Some of them are ex-members of the other religion.

I think it is a matter of having the dedication to make a religion more interesting, or to keep it interesting. People have found ways to make Islam interesting. They have found ways to make Christianity interesting. They have done that with Buddhism, New Age, etc. It is a matter of being imaginative and creative.

But maybe you are at a point where you think your religion is a load of rubbish because of the attitudes it encourages in its adherents and followers in the neighbourhood in which you live. It may be true that the followers you know really do have ridiculous attitudes. But they often aren't representative of all its followers around the world. If you actually explore the many different approaches people have developed around the world with regards to Islam and Christianity, you may start to understand why some people stay interested. You have most likely only seen a microcosm of the whole religion. Your perspective was limited to only a small locality or geographical location.

If you want to keep your interest in a particular religion alive, be creative and imaginative. Prove yourself wrong. When you find yourself becoming a fountain of ideas and making a contribution, that's when you become a teacher, a preacher, an expert.

But beware of conformity. Conformity leads to stagnation. My advice is not to keep people focused on old ideas, but to introduce new ones. While it is often good to get back to basics, I would not advise you staying with the basics. You need to develop and mature.

To illustrate an example of someone leaving due to boredom . . . maybe I should discuss the member Francis King . . . :)

Francis King found this message board boring and stagnant. It was suggested by another member that the reason why she was bored was because she didn't try making the place interesting!

Think of it as being like a novelist, artist, singer or songwriter. Michael Jackson and the Beatles didn't quit the music industry because there wasn't any good music around. No, they believed they had something better to contribute and showed it to the world. You've got to have the attitude of a musician to religion.

Be an opera singer . . . :)

Alright, You raise some good points. But. I don't think I can achieve spirituality within my own religion for, exactly the point you mentioned. The society I grew up in. Everyone around me as a child, were religious.. but not really. They would go to the Gurudwara (I'm a Sikh), just for the sake of being Sikhs, and I don't think anybody was actually truly spiritually religious, apart from maybe my grandparents. I doubt anybody around me knows the whole history of the Sikh religion, let alone its spiritual message. Therefore, What I religious education I was taught growing up was NOTHING. My problem is not conformity, it is the exact opposite! Growing up like this, I have begun to question each and everything about religion. As a child, I had seen grownups, people I had looked up to, rejecting or mocking their own religion. And now, I fear, I grew up to do the same. I cannot make a spiritual connection simply because I cant find any right path to do it. Every path I decide to choose, I end up turning it down considering it to be man-made religion. So, tell me, how can I make a spiritual connection, when I have begun to even doubt the existance of a god?
 
Hi Agnostic,

Islam is entwined with the verry essence of spirituality; infact witohut it there will be no meaning to the religion at all

To get the spiritual connection is really simple really if one has faith in their hearts; when one practices islam and does the ritual worship or abides by the islamic rule of abstaning from forbidden things, and one has the intention in their hearts that they are doing it for the pleasure of ALlah alone, so there is the spiritual connection there; is not worship for God done spiritually for Him?

And the deeper the concentration on God and moving one's feelings towards the Mercy of and closeness to God that can be felt, the more 'spiritual' one gets; it's really as simple as that

I think what both of you lacked; you and Glory to God, is faith in your hearts :(

Very true. And it is very hard instilling that faith in oneself. Everytime I have tried to do it, I have always asked why am I forcing myself to believe something which may not even exist? It is a very hard thing to do, and having a zillion religions and theories to choose from doesn't make it very easy.
 
Very true. And it is very hard instilling that faith in oneself. Everytime I have tried to do it, I have always asked why am I forcing myself to believe something which may not even exist? It is a very hard thing to do, and having a zillion religions and theories to choose from doesn't make it very easy.

Ineed, one cannot force himself to believe, that is why it is best to keep to comparative religions or investigating one religion untill a person can make a 'thoroughly informed' decision on it
 
Ineed, one cannot force himself to believe, that is why it is best to keep to comparative religions or investigating one religion untill a person can make a 'thoroughly informed' decision on it

Yep, I guess thats why I joined this forum. Just to get a feel of the general views among the people here. Some interesting ideas already, the "Interfaith as a Faith" thread is quite an interesting read. :)
 
I end up turning it down considering it to be man-made religion.

There is a part of every religion that is always going to be man-made. I'm not disturbed by that.

That may be because religion is one of the humanities. It explores the question of the "ultimate purpose" of human existence. We are exploring aspects of humanity. The part that is man-made is the part that is cultural and political. Anything not universal to humanity as a whole could be considered "man-made" because it is not already an intrinsic property of humanity.

The "truth" that every religion seeks to expose should therefore address universal truths about human beings that are independent of culture and politics. The problem that confronts many religions that is detrimental to their validity is culturally and politically dependent concepts.

When religion is not about understanding humans individually and intrinsically, but ascribing superficial labels to them like "immodest," "corrupt," "sinful," "lustful," "pious," and projecting out an appearance of holiness, purity and virtue, that is not "truth" because it doesn't properly represent human morality or dignity.

It is a cultural, political and social construct and therefore not universal. If it isn't universal, it can't be "true" because it isn't true for all human beings.

The question then of whether something is man-made or not is then a question of whether it is universal.
 
I cannot make a spiritual connection simply because I cant find any right path to do it. Every path I decide to choose, I end up turning it down considering it to be man-made religion. So, tell me, how can I make a spiritual connection, when I have begun to even doubt the existance of a god?
Namaste Agnostic,

I feel for you. I wandered in the wilderness for years myself. With similar issues, watching people attend services, listen to a message, and then withn 5 minutes ignoring the message while being impatient to get out of the parking lot. Or going and getting a message that completely didn't resonate as truth.
I have always asked why am I forcing myself to believe something which may not even exist? QUOTE]I've come to a place where it can all be completely wrong and it wouldn't affect my spirituality. I think that encompasses the difference between spirituality and religions. My religion lead me to my spirituality and that is what I give it credit for. Is it all stoy, metaphor, allegory, analogies? It no longer matters, because it is the stories, metaphors, allegories, that I have changed my outlook on this reality, not whether the players are actors or real.
Ineed, one cannot force himself to believe, that is why it is best to keep to comparative religions or investigating one religion untill a person can make a 'thoroughly informed' decision on it
Namaste Abdullah,

I so appreciate your posting this. I embrace your sentiment fully. While I think everyone can achieve that connection on any path, not every path is for them. Some need the struggle, others need the ritual, and on and on...we are all individuals.
There is a part of every religion that is always going to be man-made. I'm not disturbed by that.
Exactly, tis the paper it is printed on! And the ink...and much of the writings. But the essence, the thought between the lines, the growth we recieive from reading and praciticing the concepts...that is the blessing.
 
Namaste Abdullah,

I so appreciate your posting this. I embrace your sentiment fully. While I think everyone can achieve that connection on any path, not every path is for them. Some need the struggle, others need the ritual, and on and on...we are all individuals.

thats correct wil but i will just differ with you slighlty on that that the true spiritual connection can only be attained in Islam if one believes with certainty; there is some form of 'spirituality' that one can achieve i suppose without the certainty, but it will be nowhere close to the all pervading peace and closeness to God one feels with certainty

And individuals we are indeed, but what if once we recognise the truth and then it is not in accordance with our 'needs'?; do we reject it as it wont fullfill it? or do we get our needs and desires in accordance with how God wants them to be?; I think the latter is the best and safest choice! :)
 
There is a part of every religion that is always going to be man-made. I'm not disturbed by that.

That may be because religion is one of the humanities. It explores the question of the "ultimate purpose" of human existence. We are exploring aspects of humanity. The part that is man-made is the part that is cultural and political. Anything not universal to humanity as a whole could be considered "man-made" because it is not already an intrinsic property of humanity.

The "truth" that every religion seeks to expose should therefore address universal truths about human beings that are independent of culture and politics. The problem that confronts many religions that is detrimental to their validity is culturally and politically dependent concepts.

When religion is not about understanding humans individually and intrinsically, but ascribing superficial labels to them like "immodest," "corrupt," "sinful," "lustful," "pious," and projecting out an appearance of holiness, purity and virtue, that is not "truth" because it doesn't properly represent human morality or dignity.

It is a cultural, political and social construct and therefore not universal. If it isn't universal, it can't be "true" because it isn't true for all human beings.

The question then of whether something is man-made or not is then a question of whether it is universal.

I do understand what you're trying to say, and I understand most of your points. But, when it comes to morality, I'm not too sure. I think one of the basic ideas which human beings have got of morality is through religion itself. I think these social constructs may be part of the universal truth. Because, if you read, almost all societies all over the world have developed more or less the same basic principles of good and bad, and even morality. Be they Eastern religions, Abrahamic Religions, or maybe even extinct religions as beliefs from the Americas. There is a universal truth to those ideas, but it is hard to pinpoint what and where it lies exactly. I'm not sure if you follow what im trying to say. Its hard to explain, especially since sometimes in these thoughts, I loose myself. :p

I've come to a place where it can all be completely wrong and it wouldn't affect my spirituality. I think that encompasses the difference between spirituality and religions. My religion lead me to my spirituality and that is what I give it credit for. Is it all stoy, metaphor, allegory, analogies? It no longer matters, because it is the stories, metaphors, allegories, that I have changed my outlook on this reality, not whether the players are actors or real.

Namaste Wil, Mind sharing with me some of what you have discovered? Also, are you a Hindu?

thats correct wil but i will just differ with you slighlty on that that the true spiritual connection can only be attained in Islam if one believes with certainty; there is some form of 'spirituality' that one can achieve i suppose without the certainty, but it will be nowhere close to the all pervading peace and closeness to God one feels with certainty

And individuals we are indeed, but what if once we recognise the truth and then it is not in accordance with our 'needs'?; do we reject it as it wont fullfill it? or do we get our needs and desires in accordance with how God wants them to be?; I think the latter is the best and safest choice! :)

I studied a bit of Islam, I'll admit, not thoroughly, but enough to get some basics clear. It is confusing to an outsider like me. If one goes by the Quran, than, atleast to me the message is quite clear. But when one goes to discover more of the same content on the net, it is all mumble jumble with several different schools of thought taking and enforcing their own interpretations on the verses of the Quran. So, sure, I do believe that La illaha il allah, but when it comes down to the actual religion, whose interpretations does one go by? My own understanding of the Quran? Or by the several established schools of thought and their understanding of the Quran? After reading about Islam, it seems no less political than the religion I was born into.
 
Namaste Wil, Mind sharing with me some of what you have discovered? Also, are you a Hindu?
I am not Hindu, however I appreciate the expanse of what is intimated in the word namaste/namaskar.

As for sharing, it is simple. It isn't always the facts that are important. But the story, the moral of the story and how it affects your life.
 
I studied a bit of Islam, I'll admit, not thoroughly, but enough to get some basics clear. It is confusing to an outsider like me. If one goes by the Quran, than, atleast to me the message is quite clear. But when one goes to discover more of the same content on the net, it is all mumble jumble with several different schools of thought taking and enforcing their own interpretations on the verses of the Quran. So, sure, I do believe that La illaha il allah, but when it comes down to the actual religion, whose interpretations does one go by? My own understanding of the Quran? Or by the several established schools of thought and their understanding of the Quran? After reading about Islam, it seems no less political than the religion I was born into.

Hi Agnostic,

I infact was just discussing this very issue with a sister on another forum; it gives evidence of the group which has the correct interpretation of the Quran, so i'll post up some excerpts of it here that you may benifit from it inshALlah:

sister:
In my opinion, none of Them [the scriptures of the Abrahimic religions] were made up by human beings...which doesn't mean that They weren't changed or adapted by human beings after They were created. The major problem, I think, is that They were interpreted by human beings once They were created. Human beings, in general, do not accept correction well and once they have made up their minds, most are reluctant to change their minds. So the same errors of interpretation continue to be advocated over time and, in fact, become more and more outlandish as time passes. Thus, the perfectly created Message becomes less perfect and the interpretation becomes more superstitious as the followers adhere to literal interpretations instead of the literary or symbolic interpretations.

That theological issues are presented in symbolic imagery should not be a surprise. Each Scripture tells us that God talks to His people in symbolic language both to test the followers and to protect God's Messengers. But when you leave this symbolic language for a literal interpretation, all kinds of superstitious ideas begin to infect the language of God and the Scriptures of God resulting in the disharmony we see before us about the validity of the Scriptures of God.

Abdullah:
Salaam sister

MashAllah what a nice username you have; it means 'spirit' in Arabic
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Sister allthough you are somewhat right in regards to the previous scriptures, but dont know if you know this sister that Allah has given a divine assurance that He will protect the Quran from corruption, hence the Quran remains undistorted from it's original to this day

If we think about it sister, the protection of the Quran will, as a neccessity, include it's meaning too, for there would be no usefull purpose for just protecting the the text of the Quran and not it's meaning, for without the correct meaning [the meaning as ALlah intended it to mean and the meaning that Allah's Messenger [saw] conveyed to us] the people would not be able to get guidance from the Quran, whcih is the verry purpose of the Quran, thus we can be sure it's meaning is protected too, hence there has to be a group of muslim who have the correct interpretation; for more evidence of this, see following:

We have undoubtedly sent down the Reminder, and We will truly preserve it. (al-Qur'an, Surah al-Hijr, 15:9)

The above promise made by Allah is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the above divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), for it is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the Wisdom taught to the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) along with the Scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without recourse to the other.

Hence, Allah preserved the Qur'an from being initially lost by the martyrdom of its memorisers, by guiding the Rightly-Guided Caliphs, ...to compile the verses of the Qur'an into one volume, ...

Similarly, Allah preserved the Sunnah by enabling the Companions and those after them (may Allah be pleased with them) to memorise, write down and pass on the statements of the Messenger (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and the descriptions of his Way, as well as to continue the blessings of practising the Sunnah.

Later, as the purity of the knowledge of the Sunnah became threatened, Allah caused the Muslim nation to produce outstanding individuals of incredible memory-skills and analytical expertise, who journeyed tirelessly to collect hundreds of thousands of narrations and distinguish the true words of precious wisdom of their Messenger (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) from those corrupted by weak memories, from forgeries by unscrupulous liars, and from the statements of the enormous number of 'ulama', the Companions and those who followed their way, who had taught in various centres of learning and helped to transmit the legacy of Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) - all of this achieved through precise attention to the words narrated and detailed familiarity with the biographies of the thousands of reporters of Hadith. Action being the best way to preserve teachings, the renewers of Islam also revived the practice of the blessed authentic Sunnah.

An Introduction To The Science Of Hadith: Foreword

Indeed We have revealed the Zikr (ie. the Qur'ân) and surely We will preserve it. (15:9)

In this verse, Allâh Almighty has assured the preservation of the Holy Qur'ân. This implies that the Qur'ân will remain uninterpolated and that it shall always be transferred from one generation to the other in its real and original form, undistorted by any foreign element. The question now is whether this divine protection is restricted only to the words of the Holy Qur'ân or does it extend to its real meanings as well. If the prophetic explanation is necessary to understand the Holy Qur'ân correctly, as proved in the first chapter, then the preservation of the Qur'ânic words alone cannot serve the purpose unless the prophetic explanations are also preserved. As quoted earlier, the Holy Book says,

We have revealed to you the Zikr (Qur'ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down for them.​

The word "Zikr" has been used here for the Holy Qur'ân as has been used in the verse 15:9 and it has been made clear that the people can only benefit from its guidance when they are led by the explanations of the Holy Prophet (
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).

Again, the words "for the people" indicate (especially in the original Arabic context), that the Holy Prophet's (
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) explanation is always needed by "everyone."

Now, if everyone, in every age is in need of the prophetic explanation, without which they cannot fully benefit from the Holy Book, how would it be useful for them to preserve the Qur'ânic text and leave its prophetic explanation at the mercy of distorters, extending to it no type of protection whatsoever.

Therefore, once the necessity of the prophetic explanations of the Holy Qur'ân is accepted, it will be self-contradictory to claim that these explanations are unavailable today. It will amount to negating the divine wisdom, because it is in no way a wise policy to establish the necessity of the sunnah on the one hand and to make its discovery impossible on the other. Such a policy cannot be attributed to Allâh, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

The Authority of Sunnah - Chapter 3

cont....
 
now ofcourse the question may arise of how God should allow the previous scriptures to be distorted and not the Quran; here is an insight from shaykh Jibril:

the question at hand, namely "Why would Allah protect only one of his books and not all of them?" is one that both Jesus in the parable of the vineyard, and the Christian burners of the apocryphal Gospels have already answered. That is, God sends what He wishes with whom He wishes to whom He wishes and when He wishes; and the consequence is an argument against the receivers, not against the Sender; and once truth has been altered and defaced to the point of disappearance in part or in whole, its original shell is fodder for the fire. Or (the Muslim might tell his devout Christian interlocutor), as you might hear your own preachers tell you from the pulpit, corrupted books are of no avail whatsoever as a path of salvation no matter what pomp and solemnity continue to "paint their face fair" to the flocks immersed brow-deep in false worship. And this is the status of all abrogated Scriptures: God has willed that they become eviscerated of their spiritual function and meaning so that are mere shadows of their former selves and no longer the Divine Books that they were at the time of their respective revelation. This is clear to all, the Christian denominations and sects, their apostates and free-thinkers, and lastly Muslims, and is nothing new nor difficult to grasp.

Was-Salam
GF Haddad


I think basically what he is saying there is that, as the other books were to be abrogated and replaced with a new book containing a new shariah, hence Allah allowed them to be distorted so when the new one comes in, that is the only one worthy of being followed

hope this helps

Salam

ps: you might ask, 'which group has this correct interpretation of the Quran then, and how do we recognise them?

well Allah and the messenger [saw] have left very clear, decicive and overwhelming evidence of this sister; if your interested let me know and i'll share it with you
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sister:
Another argument that the Qur'an is not always interpreted correctly would be the actions of Muslims themselves who have split into at least 2 groups and possibly more. Not everyone believes that the Qur'an says what the terrorists say. Do you agree with those who use the Qur'an's verses to wage war against people who follow other Books despite the Qur'an's warning not to harm people of the Book?

Abdullah:
indeed sister the Quran is not allways interpreted acurately for their are many groups of Muslims who have formed astray sects and thus are misinterpreting the Quran, but since Allah has promised in the Quran to protect the Quran till the last day, then this means there has to be at least one group that has the correct meaning and i think you have guessed from what I've written above, that this group are the mainstream Muslims
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;

the mainstream Muslims consist of the two traditional creedal schools of Ashari and Maturidi, and four legal schools of Hanafi, Shafi'i Hanbali and maaliki; together this group is known as the 'ahlul Sunnah wal Jammah' [the people of the prophetic way and majority of Scholars], in short they are known as the 'sunni's'
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;

there is plenty of evidence that it is indeed this group on the right path sister and here is just a taster of the type of evidences out there:

Qur'anic Evidence

(1) Surah al-Imran (3:103):

"And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of Allah and be not divided."

Imam Sayf ad-Din al-Amidi (d. 631/1233; Rahimahullah) said in his al-Ihkam fi usul al-ahkam (The proficiency: on the fundamentals of legal rulings, pg. 295) with regard to the above Qur'anic verse:

"Allah has forbidden separation, and disagreement with consensus (ijma) is separation."

Hence, if Allah has forbidden separation then surely we must all unite on the unanimously accepted aqid'ah of our pious predecessors.

For more Quran evidence see link [from 1:15]:

YouTube - Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Creed Of Imam Al Tahawi p6

Hadith Evidence

there is much evidence that the orthodox majority of the Umma is divinely protected from error, such as the sahih hadith related by al-Hakim that "Allah's hand is over the group, and whoever diverges from them diverges to hell" (al-Mustadrak, 1.116). [comment by Shaykh nuh Ha Mim keller]

Studying Hadith Texts on Our Own

(1) Imam Abu Dawood (Rahimahullah) has quoted the well known Hadith concerning the division of the Muslim Ummah into seventy-three sects in his Sunan (3/4580, English edn):

Abu Amir al-Hawdhani said, "Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan (may Allah be pleased with him) stood among us and said, 'Beware! The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood among us and said': 'Beware! The People of the Book before (you) were split up into 72 sects, and this community will be split up into 73, seventy-two of them will go to Hell and one of them will go to Paradise, and it is the majority group (Jama'ah).'

Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (Peace be upon him) as saying:

"Follow the great mass (as-Sawad al-Azam) for he who kept himself away from it, in fact would be thrown in Hell Fire." (Ibn Majah; vide: Mishkat, 1/174, by A.H. Siddiqui).

17) Imam al-Tirmidhi (4/2167) reported on the authority of Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), who said: "Verily my Ummah would not agree (or he said the Ummah of Muhammad) would not agree upon error and Allah's hand is over the group and whoever dissents from them departs to Hell." (see also Mishkat, 1/173)

Imam al-Azizi (d. 1070/1660; Rahimahullah) quoted Imam al-Munawi's (d. 1031/1622; Rahimahullah) commentary to the last Hadith in his al-Siraj al-munir sharh al-Jami al-saghir (3.449), as follows:- Allah's hand is over the group

(al-Azizi): Munawi says, "Meaning his protection and preservation of them, signifying that the collectivity of the people of Islam are in Allah's fold, so be also in Allah's shelter, in the midst of them, and do not separate yourselves from them." The rest of the Hadith, according to the one who first recorded it (Tirmidhi), is:-

and whoever descents from them departs to hell.

Meaning that whoever diverges from the overwhelming majority concerning what is lawful or unlawful and on which the Community does not differ has slipped off the path of guidance and this will lead him to hell." (vide: The Reliance of the Traveller, pg. 25)

Who are the Ahl al-Sunnah?

for a lot more evidence sister see above link

hope this helps

Salaam
..................



Agnostic, hope this helps

Salaam
 
I infact was just discussing this very issue with a sister on another forum; it gives evidence of the group which has the correct interpretation of the Quran, so i'll post up some excerpts of it here that you may benifit from it

It bleedin well does not have the "correct interpretation" of the koran. I do. As revealed to me by the angel Rupert the Bear, superior of that little wannabe upstart Gabriel that started this whole mess rolling. The whole Koran is a political device for at best the basis of law in a feudal/tribal system and at worst - and all too commonly - carte blanch to any little mufti, family elder or any other control freak to behave like a tyrant. You cannot re-interpret the koran not to contain all the hate and sexism that it does and the authorities that control the dominant jurisprudence are at their core misogynistic and racist. Take Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi and more as examples. The Angel Rupert tells me you can only find paradise by listening to me. I am the new prophet! Cast aside the ancient and embrace the future, for time never stands still never ever retreats! It is up to each person to write their own koran for themselves. To know what human goodness and kindness is and how to use it to balance the selfishness that will prevail till the end of man. And to write that not into their preaching to others, for others journeys belong to them, but in the sermon you have the only right to give, to yourself. For others let not your words convey your moral authority but your actions in your contribution to our shared human journey. You cannot find lifes full sustinence with your head stuck in a bucket of even the sweetest honey and equally you cannot find rationality nor wisdom with your head stuck in a single book. You have a duty to educate yourself to the point where you understand with profundity that you know nothing and that in that you are equal with all mankind. You are born with a mind capable of concieving the very idea of freedom and it is your duty in a world full of people conspiring to physically deny you that to reach for it whenever you can. Mentally if you have not freedom you have little of any value at all. Eductaion, broad source, not one incessant drone, is the most impressive liberator there is. Which is why the muftis of the world seek to control it. Do not add fat to their already grotesquely fat fat. Think for yourself. Allah is not watching you... he cannot watch you....you are simply to small for him to see. That is why he goes through Rupert and his subordinates. Like me. :rolleyes:
 
It bleedin well does not have the "correct interpretation" of the koran. I do. As revealed to me by the angel Rupert the Bear, superior of that little wannabe upstart Gabriel that started this whole mess rolling. The whole Koran is a political device for at best the basis of law in a feudal/tribal system and at worst - and all too commonly - carte blanch to any little mufti, family elder or any other control freak to behave like a tyrant. You cannot re-interpret the koran not to contain all the hate and sexism that it does and the authorities that control the dominant jurisprudence are at their core misogynistic and racist. Take Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi and more as examples. The Angel Rupert tells me you can only find paradise by listening to me. I am the new prophet! Cast aside the ancient and embrace the future, for time never stands still never ever retreats! It is up to each person to write their own koran for themselves. To know what human goodness and kindness is and how to use it to balance the selfishness that will prevail till the end of man. And to write that not into their preaching to others, for others journeys belong to them, but in the sermon you have the only right to give, to yourself. For others let not your words convey your moral authority but your actions in your contribution to our shared human journey. You cannot find lifes full sustinence with your head stuck in a bucket of even the sweetest honey and equally you cannot find rationality nor wisdom with your head stuck in a single book. You have a duty to educate yourself to the point where you understand with profundity that you know nothing and that in that you are equal with all mankind. You are born with a mind capable of concieving the very idea of freedom and it is your duty in a world full of people conspiring to physically deny you that to reach for it whenever you can. Mentally if you have not freedom you have little of any value at all. Eductaion, broad source, not one incessant drone, is the most impressive liberator there is. Which is why the muftis of the world seek to control it. Do not add fat to their already grotesquely fat fat. Think for yourself. Allah is not watching you... he cannot watch you....you are simply to small for him to see. That is why he goes through Rupert and his subordinates. Like me. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: i see were burying our heads in the sand again :p
 
Abdullah, That is precisely what I'm talking about. You provided me with quotes and perceptions of various scholars; whereelse, the Quran is suppose to be the one book and Muhammad's (pbuh) message the last revelation. How is it possible for the message to be so imperfect that to understand it, we must turn to other scholar's interpretations of that message? The Quaran asks humanity to be united, yet, atleast from my perspective, you think this should only be done under the Salafi or Wahabbi ideology. I beg to differ, there is no proof that Allah sent those scholars to interpret his message, I thought that is why he sent prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for? So why then would there still be a need for others to interpret the Quaran? Did the prophet not make it clear enough? As Tao stated, just in a little more cynical way, Islam, or rather, these different schools of thought, are very political in their construct. My opinion, your take?
 
Abdullah, That is precisely what I'm talking about. You provided me with quotes and perceptions of various scholars; whereelse, the Quran is suppose to be the one book and Muhammad's (pbuh) message the last revelation. How is it possible for the message to be so imperfect that to understand it, we must turn to other scholar's interpretations of that message? The Quaran asks humanity to be united, yet, atleast from my perspective, you think this should only be done under the Salafi or Wahabbi ideology. I beg to differ, there is no proof that Allah sent those scholars to interpret his message, I thought that is why he sent prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for? So why then would there still be a need for others to interpret the Quaran? Did the prophet not make it clear enough? As Tao stated, just in a little more cynical way, Islam, or rather, these different schools of thought, are very political in their construct. My opinion, your take?

well Agnos, I thnik you answered this question yourself here; you acknowledge that Allah sent the prophet muhammad [saw] to interpret the Quran..., so dont you think that this very Prophetic interpretation needs to be passed down from Scholar to Scholar in order that they may preserve it and teach it to the laymen?
 
except, of course, that there are many more scholars than the ones you approve of, abdullah - because muhammad's interpretation of the Qur'an itself requires interpretation, as you well know, so it ends up like all these other discussions in the question "who do you trust?"

we all know there are more answers to this than the monolithic one you suggest.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
except, of course, that there are many more scholars than the ones you approve of, abdullah - because muhammad's interpretation of the Qur'an itself requires interpretation, as you well know, so it ends up like all these other discussions in the question "who do you trust?"

we all know there are more answers to this than the monolithic one you suggest.

b'shalom

bananabrain


Precisely.

And whoever you talk to will have their own preferences for you to turn to. I think Islam should equal the Quran, but it doesn't. It's FAR more political than that, and I honestly cannot trust another human being to pass forward the message, because those messages can never be perfect and have a possibility of being filled with bias in regards to the political circumstances of the time. Because, lets face it, thats human nature. If humans could be trusted with carrying forward a message, why would God have to send multiple prophets in the first place?
 
Precisely.

And whoever you talk to will have their own preferences for you to turn to. I think Islam should equal the Quran, but it doesn't. It's FAR more political than that, and I honestly cannot trust another human being to pass forward the message, because those messages can never be perfect and have a possibility of being filled with bias in regards to the political circumstances of the time. Because, lets face it, thats human nature. If humans could be trusted with carrying forward a message, why would God have to send multiple prophets in the first place?

because we didn't/don't all live in the same place at the same time? now we have the benefit of a global convergence of a [more or less] universal spirituality that if stripped of all politico-hisorico-culturo 'bias' can still be felt in each throbbing heart a realisation 'there is no muslim there is no hindu' but there is a shared humanity [covered up by sectarianism ie institutionalised religions].
a loner stoner
 
because we didn't/don't all live in the same place at the same time? now we have the benefit of a global convergence of a [more or less] universal spirituality that if stripped of all politico-hisorico-culturo 'bias' can still be felt in each throbbing heart a realisation 'there is no muslim there is no hindu' but there is a shared humanity [covered up by sectarianism ie institutionalised religions].
a loner stoner

I do agree with you that Humanity is the biggest religion, but I'm approaching this from a clearly Islamic and Abrahamic point of view. I think it is important to learn each religious perspective and that is why have been studying Islam for a while. Its a great religion for self discipline if one follows it personally, but in society, it is a heavily politicized religion, and as much as lot of Muslims like to think that Islam is true and unaltered, well, lets just say that every major Muslim society is influenced not only by the Quran but by people who came after the Prophet's time changing and interprating the Quran in various ways. Another religion with a significant man-made imprint.
 
except, of course, that there are many more scholars than the ones you approve of, abdullah - because muhammad's interpretation of the Qur'an itself requires interpretation, as you well know, so it ends up like all these other discussions in the question "who do you trust?"

we all know there are more answers to this than the monolithic one you suggest.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Peace banana! :)

indeed it requires interpretation to work out what the Prophet [saw's] interpretation is, but the working out principles/methodology itself has been handed down from Scholar to Scholar since the early days of Islam, thus the majority that are united on one interpretation with their valid differences, can't go wrong as long as they stick to the correct methodology...;

also as the Quranic and Sunnah evidences clarifiy as to how to recognise the correct interpretation, thus having check and balance/foolproof measures, hence there is clear divine guidance on how to recognise this interpretartion and as shown, the verry clear and overwhelming evidence is that the group that consists of the majority of the Scholars have it
 
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