"This place is dangerous for trying to find truth"

[Saltmeister]

Yes, absolutely, I once got a fundamentalist christian off my back by approvingly quoting a Gnostic gospel. Never heard from him again.

How did that happen? Did you scare him off?

 

[shawn]

some people including mods tend to push their opinions are being superior to that of others

This is no surprise.
I haven't actually seen anyone who doesn't fit that bill.
Everyone apparently thinks their truth is better than the others who discuss their own version and this is due to their personal bias.
And what is wrong with that?
So it is a good "killing floor" to test your ideas and see how firm your convictions really are, or test your theories for holes and weaknesses.
Then again, much of what anyone writes will be ignored.

 

[Avi]

I wouldn't call you a hairy tic, but I might consider you a bit of a curmudgeon. It's all good though, Avi ... No hard feelings.

Glad to hear that, James, just meant to exchange ideas with you.

 

[Tao_Equus]

LMAO ... Funny, but about the only thing I truly hold tight to is a belief in God, and an admiration for the man that was Jesus, and of course the spirit behind the man. The rest is subject to change as it often does.

So what is god?... Who was Jesus?...have you met either of them ? Do you mean the spirit behind the myth? Would not believing actually have to change who you are, your words, actions, hopes and fears, in any way? Are you so weak in your ability to remain a 'decent' person that you need the anchor of the Christ story to prevent some inevitable descent? Or is it like a teddy bear that comforts you as you go to sleep at night? Or something else altogether?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Lol. You'd have us all give up the game of religion for good.

Interesting choice of words ;-)

 

[Gatekeeper]

So what is god?... Who was Jesus?...have you met either of them ? Do you mean the spirit behind the myth?

God is EVERYTHING existing according to my view, Tao. Jesus was a man whom I view to hold the key to life- Myth or not.

Would not believing actually have to change who you are, your words, actions, hopes and fears, in any way?

Nope, but I do believe and it harms no one.

Are you so weak in your ability to remain a 'decent' person that you need the anchor of the Christ story to prevent some inevitable descent?

LoL, weak in my ability - aren't we all at one time or another? The Christ story keeps my mind focused on something better than I myself am at present.

Or is it like a teddy bear that comforts you as you go to sleep at night? Or something else altogether?

Comfort? No ... Motivated? Yes!

 

[Avi]

What are you doing raising an internal dispute in the Christianity forum as a general dispute for all religions?

Not my intention at all, Saltie. The focus of my post was whether this forum is a danger to trying to find truth. If that is the case, is it not a problem for all of us, of all faiths ?

The reason I moved a branch to this sub is because I felt this topic was a tangent to the discussion on the thread in Christianity and it would be viewed as such and either ignored or criticized.

By the way, I also meant to add that I am not trying to be critical of Faithfulservant in the title and OP. I know that she is very sensitive and takes criticism very seriously.

I think this issue is one which faces "conservatives" and "reformers" of all traditions. How many Orthodox Jews (OJ) do you see posting in this forum ? Even though BB is much more observant than myself, in my view, his ideas are much more progressive than the OJs that I know and even most of the Conservative Jews. I think it might be common amongst "conservative" religious folks to find this place "dangerous".

Do you know your mistake, Avi?

No, but I have a feeling you are going to tell me.

You've just made the scope a hundredfold too wide. You've just diluted the whole issue. Reaching a consensus would be easier for one tradition, but you are asking us to reconcile that to many different traditions.

Who said we are going to reach a consensus ??

I don't even think they have this issue in most other religions. I look around me and see a hundred times more freedom, flexibility and permissiveness. Thinking seems to be ok even in Judaism and Islam. But in Christianity, you could get a slap in the face.

No thinking allowed, hmm. Weren't there any Christian thinkers ?

Since I am a scientist and engineer, I googled Christian thinkers and this popper out:

List of Christian thinkers in science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It looks like at least a little thinking is allowed D).

Life would be boring without danger. What is more noble and honourable than confronting danger to get to the Truth?

I'm with you so far.

Do you think finding the Truth would follow an easy road?

Not if it is a deeper truth.

Only a coward would say we shouldn't surf the Internet because it was dangerous.

How fast can I drive there ?

Ask bananabrain.

I have a feeling BB will tell me whether I ask or not.

But really, it is Christians (ie. fundamentalist Christians) that are most notorious and infamous for heresy hunting. I don't think even Jews and Muslims go that far with that kind of demonisation and vilification.

Is that so ? Why do you think that is the case ? Do you think Jesus was treated as a heretic by the Jews (maybe this is why this topic is better discussed in B&S ).

Muslim societies have their "moral police,"

That does not sound so great either. Do they have billie sticks ?

but in Christianity we don't have a specific group dedicated to monitoring what people say and do.

Now there is an idea for a new club !

In Christianity (well, in a lot of churches/Christian communities, I should say), everybody is a member of the thought police, policing thoughts. Big Brother is watching you, but nobody has ever figured out where and from whence Big Brother derives his power or even the identity of Big Brother himself. He seems too intangible to arrest, kill and assassinate.

Just when we think we've cornered him, he's moved. The System has a way of adjusting itself.

Somehow I get the feeling you don't exactly buy in hook, line and sinker.

Jews mind their own business.

You don't know my Mother-in-Law .

Muslims have a code. They follow the Islamic rules of engagement. They try to be nice, to be kind to infidels: "If you don't attack us, we won't attack you." At least in Islam you're treated like human being.

Sounds like you are very fond of Muslims, who are your favorites ? What do you think of Ahmadinejad ? Were you a fan of Saadem Hussein ? What about Osama Bin Laden ?

But with Christians, if you're fundamentalist, a heretic is treated like a witch.

How do you feel about witches ? Ever been to Salem, MA ? How have the Aussie's treated witches ?

A heretic is a child of the devil. He's an agent of something far more evil than himself.

Have you met any of these folks here, in this forum ??

 

[Tao_Equus]

God is EVERYTHING existing according to my view, Tao. Jesus was a man whom I view to hold the key to life- Myth or not.

Nope, but I do believe and it harms no one.

LoL, weak in my ability - aren't we all at one time or another? The Christ story keeps my mind focused on something better than I myself am at present.

Comfort? No ... Motivated? Yes!

"EVERYTHING" is BIG. So BIG you have no idea what everything is. Yet you trust that the 99.99 to infinty percent of that BIGNESS you have never and can never see was made by something you also cannot see but exists because some institution with a schizophrenic old book says so! I just find beliefs like that confusing. I cant see how anybody at all can believe it. It is actually solidly in the realm of the ridiculous.

 

[Gatekeeper]

"EVERYTHING" is BIG. So BIG you have no idea what everything is. Yet you trust that the 99.99 to infinty percent of that BIGNESS you have never and can never see was made by something you also cannot see but exists because some institution with a schizophrenic old book says so! I just find beliefs like that confusing. I cant see how anybody at all can believe it. It is actually solidly in the realm of the ridiculous.

No, I think you may have misunderstood me, Tao ... Existence wasn't 'created' in my mind - it just "is". Existence just "Is" and that is how I view God ... As Existence itself.

I trust that EVERTHING in its entirety will never be known, nor understood - Yet, here we are living and breathing withing its entirety. Not so different than your view. I think the difference is in what I call it.

I once looked at scripture as if it was infallible, but as I stated earlier, the only things I hold tight to is a belief in God (As Existence) and an admiration for the man that was Jesus (Whether myth or not), and the spirit behind the man. The rest is subject to change ... As it often does.

GK

 

[shawn]

No, I think you may have misunderstood me, Tao ... Existence wasn't 'created' in my mind - it just "is". Existence just "Is" and that is how I view God ... As Existence itself.

I trust that EVERTHING in its entirety will never be known, nor understood - Yet, here we are living and breathing withing its entirety. Not so different than your view. I think the difference is in what I call it.

I once looked at scripture as if it was infallible, but as I stated earlier, the only things I hold tight to is a belief in God (As Existence) and an admiration for the man that was Jesus (Whether myth or not), and the spirit behind the man. The rest is subject to change ... As it often does.

GK

Seems like a good place to work from to me.
More will come, eventually.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Seems like a good place to work from to me.
More will come, eventually.

I imagine it will ... I just recently threw out a great deal of baggage a few months ago. I hope that the 'more to come' will be beneficial instead of unneeded weight like before.

 

[Paladin]

"EVERYTHING" is BIG. So BIG you have no idea what everything is. Yet you trust that the 99.99 to infinty percent of that BIGNESS you have never and can never see was made by something you also cannot see but exists because some institution with a schizophrenic old book says so! I just find beliefs like that confusing. I cant see how anybody at all can believe it. It is actually solidly in the realm of the ridiculous.

Yes, but it's all part of the story now isn't it?

People, for the most part are collections of cognitive biases with the occasional spark of pure insight. Shame it only happens in less than .00001% of the population.

 

[wil]

Great Thread!

And exactly the reason I love this place. The debate, the discussion, the variety of beliefs. While reading this thread I've been listening to all the videos linked to the Carl Sagan video Tao placed in the passings thread incredibly so many of them are about evolution and G!d, science and G!d, String theory and G!d, etc. And an Atheist with the stated goal of converting all us believers is who lead all these to me!

G!d is good and working thru you now Tao, we are so blessed to have you here.

And Faithful Servant and Dor, while it is my belief ( I could be completely wrong) that Dor couldn't no longer post because of this Hairy Tic, Faithful has been a rock of love and concern for all Christians that come here. Hence the quote that started this thread. Yes they are bible thumping fundamentalist believers, and yes they are concerned for all our souls due to their understandings of Jesus from their teachings. What is not to like? I thank G!d for their presence here as well.

Now do I object to the concept of don't see that movie or don't read that book or don't talk to that person?? Yes, vehemently, I'd run screaming if anyone did that to me, I abhor that thought, it is censorship in it finest. But wait, I do that, I have for 16 years with my children, in regards to pornography, movies, television, strange people....I should take the log out of my eye!! Or is it exactly the same? Does not Faithful or any of us in our various beliefs want our budding, growing believers to believe as we do, do we not want to protect them from thoughts and visions that their young believer minds are to soft and vulnerable to protect them from confusion that will arise? And in that case do not I, Dor/Faithful, Tao, BB and others all have the same impetus?

Yes this place is dangerous, avoid leaving at all costs, your mind will be opened and washed, your beliefs will be challenged and ridiculed, your foundation will be tested and you will meet your demons on this very sacred ground....

And you will grow from it.

 

[Saltmeister]

How many Orthodox Jews (OJ) do you see posting in this forum ? Even though BB is much more observant than myself, in my view, his ideas are much more progressive than the OJs that I know and even most of the Conservative Jews. I think it might be common amongst "conservative" religious folks to find this place "dangerous".

I suppose I shouldn't think all Orthodox Jews are as deep thinkers as bananabrain -- I mean, open-minded, reasonable and not dogmatic.

Who said we are going to reach a consensus ??

What, you're doing a survey?

No thinking allowed, hmm. Weren't there any Christian thinkers ? Since I am a scientist and engineer, I googled Christian thinkers and this popper out:

List of Christian thinkers in science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It looks like at least a little thinking is allowed D).

I was speaking of the fundamentalists.

Is that so ? Why do you think that is the case ? Do you think Jesus was treated as a heretic by the Jews (maybe this is why this topic is better discussed in B&S ).

Like I said, heretics aren't just infidels. They're witches. But I think Jesus came close to that once when he forced out demons and was accused of using the power of the devil to do it!

Have you met any of these folks here, in this forum ??

I don't hunt for witches. It's not my job.

 

[Saltmeister]

And in that case do not I, Dor/Faithful, Tao, BB and others all have the same impetus?

Yeah, everyone comes here to play with the dinosaurs, dragons and demons. My adversary is fundamentalism and legalism.

Tao's is religion. Faithful's is anything that doesn't agree with Fundie Christianity. Nick_A's is political correctness and righteous indignation or anything that gives Simone Weil a purpose. Thomas' is anything that goes against orthodoxy.

What a variety!

Yes this place is dangerous, avoid leaving at all costs, your mind will be opened and washed, your beliefs will be challenged and ridiculed, your foundation will be tested and you will meet your demons on this very sacred ground....And you will grow from it.

Warning! Mature audiences only.

Adult themes. Coarse language. Sexual references. Extreme violence. Pedophilia. Pornography.

Not suitable for young minds and viewers.

 

[Raksha]

Yes, absolutely, I once got a fundamentalist christian off my back by approvingly quoting a Gnostic gospel. Never heard from him again.

That's a truly classy way to handle that situation! I'll have to remember that the next time I run into a Christian fundie. Usually I tell them I'm Jewish, and then they tell me they are "Hebrew Christians." With the JWs it's even worse...for obvious reasons.

--Linda

 

[the breeze]

How did that happen? Did you scare him off?

Sort of, gnosticism is usually seen as evil by fundies so I guess he didn't want to dialogue with the devil.

 

[the breeze]

That's a truly classy way to handle that situation! I'll have to remember that the next time I run into a Christian fundie. Usually I tell them I'm Jewish, and then they tell me they are "Hebrew Christians." With the JWs it's even worse...for obvious reasons.

--Linda

The guy in question was interesting because he wasn't a member of a church. There was just him and his family and maybe a few friends. It was like almost the ultimate schism where you get one person churches.

Also, I used to work with a very mouthy JW. I found making jokes about Noah's Ark did the trick in his case.

Perhaps we could create a tips and tricks manual about how to drive away dogmatists of various types.

 

[Saltmeister]

Perhaps we could create a tips and tricks manual about how to drive away dogmatists of various types.

It could also be mean. Imagine life as a door-knocking evangelist.

Door 1: Inhabitant gets to know me, asks me about my background and then proceeds to disparage me, insulting my intelligence, my education, academic successes and failures telling me I'm a loser.

Door 2: Racial insult. Go back to your own country.

Door 3: You're not sexy enough. You're ugly. You're husband/wife is having an affair!

Door 4: You dress too nice. You're a slut, whore, philanderer. You're not just here to preach, you're here to flirt with me and seduce me.

Door 5: Your religion is stupid.

Door 6: Krusty the Clown opens the door . . .

Ok, you get the picture. Life has got to be really depressing going around trying to convert people. There's got to be some reward to be had from it . . . like a way of picking up girls.

Just imagine if it meant something more than just religion. These people must really get tired of their job. Maybe half the time they really want to come in to keep a desperate housewife company. Rather than just passing by door to door they actually come in to have adventures in your bedroom. If it's not being lectured about a religion it's having some fun and rock'n roll.

I say this from experience after having met JW girls going to door to door telling people about the Watch Tower. They happened to pass through my neighbourhood. I thought one of those girls were pretty. I was secretly wondering what it would be like to marry her. She talked about how the church was like a bride, a wife to Jesus. I thought her dedication and devotion to her work as a JW made her attractive and sexy. She was nicely dressed. I behaved myself, but my mind was going wild. hehehe evil, naughty me.

Seriously, she was really psyching me out. It's like the Watch Tower wasn't an enemy anymore. I would have gone out with her regardless. Even now I wonder what it would be like if I asked her, "hey, would you like to go out with me?"

I imagined kissing her . . . and exploring her . . . ok, I won't go there.

I wonder what it's like sometimes going to a girlfriend/boyfriend's church. Does religion make people sexy?

But maybe in a rather twisted way, if you want to get rid of a Fundie, all you have to do is ask them out on a date, seduce them or initiate some sexual advances. Open the door, give them a nice, long, juicy kiss and see what happens next.

When you meet a pretty girl, it makes listening to a person talk about a religion all the more palatable. Maybe half the time it's the religion that makes them pretty.

 

[wil]

There is the seek first to understand. Now I used to be a real ass (those of you who think I still am wouldn't have been able to stand me at all) and my fav was to tell the door2doors that I worshipped door knobs...every day I carressed them, rubbed them, turned them and they opened doors for me and I'd invite them in for koolaid and they'd move on.

Today I explore the seek first to understand. And I question everything and it is completely unappreciated... When they show me the evils of whatever we explore the passages above and below which they don't follow. We discuss the origins of the bible JEPD and the authors of the new testament and they don't like...after bringing on the bigger guns to my door, it doesn't take more than three trips and that will be the last time I see them....Book of Mornon sure was interesting reading...