Did Jesus Die?

A

adambasher

Guest
Before answering the question whether Jesus died or not, let us first understand the meaning of death. In the Holy Qur’an, Allah defined death as ‘transfer’ (wafaat) from one world to another. At death, the soul leaves the earthly body and moves to another world. However, it is also possible that the soul and the body both leave this world, without being separated from each other. This will also be called death for that person. After death, the souls of the ordinary people stay asleep until the Day of Judgment. The souls of some selected prophets, however, can stay awake in a different kind of body in different worlds (in heavens). This can be proved from the well-known Tradition where the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) described his nightly journey (Isra and Miraj) to the seven heavens. He met some prophets in different heavens while ascending to the highest heaven and, ultimately, met and spoke to God. Here is the Tradition:

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345:
Narrated Abu Djar (ra):

Allah's Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca, the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered: 'Gabriel.' He asked, 'Is there anyone with you?' Gabriel replied, 'Yes, Muhammad is with me.' He asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he smiled and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' He replied, 'He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he smiles and when he looks towards his left he weeps.'
Then he ascended with me till he reached the second heaven and he (Gabriel) said to its gatekeeper, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper said to him the same as the gatekeeper of the first heaven had said and he opened the gate. Anas said: "Abu Djar added that the Prophet met Adam, Idris, Moses, Jesus and Abraham, he (Abu Djar) did not mention on which heaven they were but he mentioned that he (the Prophet) met Adam on the nearest heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. Anas said, "When Gabriel along with the Prophet passed by Idris, the latter said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' The Prophet asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Idris." The Prophet added, "I passed by Moses and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Moses.' Then I passed by Jesus and he said, 'Welcome! O pious brother and pious Prophet.' I asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Jesus.

Then I passed by Abraham and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Abraham. The Prophet added, 'Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens." Ibne Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?' I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.' I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.' Then Gabriel took me till we reached Sidra-tul-Muntaha (Lote tree of the utmost boundary) that was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk."

Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) met Adam on the first heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. The narrator did not mention here on which heaven he met Jesus. In another Tradition, however, it was mentioned that the meeting with Jesus took place on the fourth heaven.

Do we all agree that Prophet Adam, Idris, Moses and Abraham have died? Yes, right? After they died, where are they residing now? In different level of heavens, according to this authentic Tradition. Now, where did Mohammad meet Jesus? In the same place as the other prophets – in the heaven – in the fourth heaven, to be precise. So can there be any doubt that all those prophets are dead in relation to this world but are alive and living in the heavens and so is Prophet Jesus? How he died – by crucifixion or natural death or ‘raised up by Allah to heaven’ is a different question. Allah said in Qur’an:

4:157 They say that: “We have killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of Allah.” Neither did they kill him, nor did they crucify him, but (it was made) to resemble for them. Surely those who differed in it (they were) in doubt about it. They did not have any knowledge about it except following the guess and surely they did not kill him (Jesus).

4:158 Allah raised him (Jesus) up to Him (in the heavens). Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.

We have earlier mentioned that death itself means to leave this world or to transfer (wafaat) from this world to another. This transfer can happen only to the soul or both the soul and the body. Here Allah says that He ‘raised Jesus up to Him (onto heaven)’. Therefore, no matter in whatever method the departure of Jesus from this world took place, in the common sense of death (wafaat) he has been transferred to another world (heaven), meaning, he died, like all other prophets did.
 
That's because it seems most Muslims visit here simply to copy/paste general propaganda tripe like the idiot poster starting this thread.

It's an unfortunate problem I've seen a lot - that most of the time I see Muslims online talking about religion, it's simply so they can mindless copy/paste pro-Islam stuff they found elsewhere online like some idiot Borg.

Even the fundamentalist Christians we've seen have never been so bad. Obnoxious, sure, but at least they can think for themselves, no matter in what warped way.

I guess it's the camels promise.
 
I said:
Even the fundamentalist Christians we've seen have never been so bad. Obnoxious, sure, but at least they can think for themselves, no matter in what warped way.
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Christian fundamentalists can "think for themselves" ??

Just because they are native English speakers and find it easier to rehash other people's thoughts in their own words, doesn't mean they are thinking for themselves.

I guess it's the camels promise.
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Oh... kay (...?)
 
Meaning, some people can frame their own arguments in their own words, but alas Muslims copy/pasting into forums has been a problem I've encountered since managing communities from 2001.

And there was a quote I was once provided with - something about spreading the word resulting in a reward like 1000 camels. Or something along those lines. :)
 
I said:
Even the fundamentalist Christians we've seen have never been so bad. Obnoxious, sure, but at least they can think for themselves, no matter in what warped way.
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c0de said:
Christian fundamentalists can "think for themselves" ??

Just because they are native English speakers and find it easier to rehash other people's thoughts in their own words, doesn't mean they are thinking for themselves.
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I think c0de has a point and I agree many of the Muslims who post here probably aren't "Western," in their thinking. That is why most fundamentalist Christians seem better. Because of their non-Western background, many of these Muslim posters talk about things we wouldn't normally care about. It is only when we belong to that alien culture that we would care.

From my perspective, "fundamentalist Christians" are no better than "fundamentalist Muslims" because the underlying problem is that they are both "fundamentalist."

Fundamentalist Christians may appear to "think for themselves," at least on some matters, but my gripe with these fundamentalists is that they are unwilling or resistant to "thinking outside the box." Whether it's Fundie Christians saying "Jesus died for your sins" or Fundie Muslims saying "Islam is the solution," the problem is the same: it is the attitude that "there is no need to think, the thinking has already been done."

The common Christian belief that the "salvation" offered by Jesus is the "solution" for all humanity is no better than Muslims proclaiming that "Islam is the solution." Not everybody wants a solution-religion and not everybody wants to be told that they are an "idiot" if they don't accept this "solution" that is being offered. (How rude!:eek:)

When I say "common Christian belief" I mean that I do not consider this the whole point or purpose of Christianity. I think too much emphasis has been placed on "salvation" at the expense of other things in Christianity.

c0de said:
Though, the Islam board is almost dead these days
I should email DITB to ask her to become active again...
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I think the so-called "fundamentalists" are kept out of the Christianity or Islam forums because it doesn't really help with interfaith dialogue. I see it as a good thing because at least then we can focus on increasing mutual understanding rather than worrying about who is a heretic, apostate, infidel, unbeliever or kafir.

Also, if you know a few Muslims that you think would make a good contribution here, I would prefer ones that act "normal" (like yourself) and aren't "weird" in the sense that they have an interest in sharing knowledge about Islam and do not slant their discussion toward talking about why "Islam is the solution! Islam is the solution!" I don't mind "geekiness." Be a geek if you like, just don't be the kind that projects the belief that everyone else is an idiot.
 
adambasher said:
4:157 They say that: “We have killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of Allah.” Neither did they kill him, nor did they crucify him, but (it was made) to resemble for them. Surely those who differed in it (they were) in doubt about it. They did not have any knowledge about it except following the guess and surely they did not kill him (Jesus).

4:158 Allah raised him (Jesus) up to Him (in the heavens). Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.

We have earlier mentioned that death itself means to leave this world or to transfer (wafaat) from this world to another. This transfer can happen only to the soul or both the soul and the body. Here Allah says that He ‘raised Jesus up to Him (onto heaven)’. Therefore, no matter in whatever method the departure of Jesus from this world took place, in the common sense of death (wafaat) he has been transferred to another world (heaven), meaning, he died, like all other prophets did.
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In the past I would have been quite annoyed to read this. The common Christian stance on Jesus "appearing to die" is that denying that his death was "real" denies the importance of the cause for which he died.

But after reading about the first-century Judean, Palestinian and Jewish culture, the influence of Hellenism and the agendas and beliefs of various groups like the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and Nazarenes and the role of Jesus' miracles and resurrection, I have come to think that the Muslim view might be plausible without contradicting the Christian one.

I don't want to spend too long on my explanation, so I will try to provide enough information for it to "make sense." I'm trying to minimise the time I spend on these forums.

I think emphasis on salvation has prevented many of us from understanding the real significance of Jesus' miracles, his life, death and resurrection.

Most Christians today probably believe that the significance of Jesus' death and resurrection was him dying for our sins, and that the meaning of his death and resurrection ends there. This understanding of Christianity has its roots in Greek and Roman Christianity, but Greek and Roman Christianity was not the original Christianity.

The original Christians were the Nazarenes and their faith may seem like a contradiction in the eyes of today's Christians because they continued to follow the Law and the commandments in Judaism.

For many of today's Christians, the understanding is that because Jesus died for people's sins and freed them from the Law, the Nazarenes were heretics. Indeed, the later Christians (mostly Greek, Roman and therefore Gentile) considered the Nazarenes to be heretics. According to the apostle Paul, salvation is by faith. Christians are justified by faith.

I think this is the misunderstanding of what the Nazarenes were about. I believe the Nazarenes were still living by "faith in Jesus," but "faith in Jesus" meant something completely different to the Nazarenes than to the Greek and Roman Christians.

Without looking into the history, culture and politics of that time, you wouldn't be able to understand how continuing to live by the Law could not contradict one's "faith in Christ."

Back in Jesus' day, the two major schools of thought regarding the proper approach to the commandments in Judaism were Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai. Hillel taught a liberal and humanity-oriented approach to Judaism and he had a pacifist attitude toward foreigners. Shammai taught a fundamentalist and legalistic approach to Judaism, an approach that dehumanised the Law. If the Law is about justice and justice requires an understanding of humanity, then this was something Hillel got right and Shammai had "missed the mark" (so to speak).

Many of Jesus' teachings are similar to those of Hillel (ie. humanity-oriented) and he was probably one of his greatest advocates.

During Jesus' lifetime, Shammai passed the so-called "18 measures" or "18 ordinances" through the Sanhedrin. Everybody was required to follow these "18 ordinances." Everybody was required to follow a fundamentalist and legalistic approach to Judaism.

There is a lot of truth to the idea that "Jesus died for people's sins" considering that people were made to think they were worthless before God while they were under the influence of Beit Shammai. (Many Christians today who don't know or understand this bit of history don't realise that the "worthlessness" that makes them think everybody needs Jesus as a "saviour" was the "worthlessness" that people felt under Beit Shammai. Because Beit Shammai was overthrown soon after the destruction of the Second Temple, Christians today have to create an "artificial Beit Shammai" in order for their "salvation theology" to make sense. Salvation theology may actually be a case of Christian nostalgia.)

Jesus sought to change that, to save people from the vices of Beit Shammai. When Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life," he was talking about his own teachings, which were similar to those of Hillel. Jesus' teachings, like those of Hillel, were a humanity-oriented approach to Judaism.

The chief difference between Hillel and Jesus was that Hillel dedicated himself to the religious establishment and his legacy was in the development of Rabbinic Judaism, while Jesus' legacy was in his miracles, his resurrection and in people believing that they had experienced the "kingdom of God" or "kingdom of heaven." (Ok ....... so Hillel and Jesus were compatible; they just had different agendas.)

So why are Jesus' miracles and resurrection so important? A large proportion of Christians today believe that it's because Jesus was "the Son of God" or that "he was God." But Jesus was not the only one performing miracles and it wasn't just his disciples that were able to perform miracles.

The Resurrection of Jesus as a Historical Problem by N.T. Wright

You didn't need to be Jesus, a Son of God or a disciple of Jesus to perform miracles and it didn't necessarily mean you were a sorcerer or magician if you did perform miracles. The miracles were a sign of something else.

One theory is that heaven was "breaking in" to our "earthly reality." Many of Jesus' teachings are about detachment from the material possessions of this world. But I don't think it is detachment that is the point. Jesus often told stories of what the "kingdom of heaven" was like and perhaps what he wanted was his disciples to live like "the people in heaven."

Miracles are the Kingdom of God breaking into our world|CatholicHerald.co.uk

People who performed miracles but were not disciples of Jesus probably understood what Jesus' disciples understood. They knew what it was like to live like the people in heaven. Heaven was "breaking in" because people were no longer living in our "earthly reality," but in heaven. Their bodies were still here, their consciousness was still here, but their hearts were somewhere else.

Faith in Jesus for the Nazarenes was not faith in "salvation theology," which is the common Christian understanding of Jesus' resurrection, but faith that his teachings would allow them to connect with a heavenly reality.

The resurrection of Jesus could be thought of as the final miracle of Jesus where heaven "broke in" one last time. Whenever heaven breaks in to our earthly reality, the natural laws of this reality are defied, allowing miracles to happen. The resurrection was a miracle. It was heaven breaking in, defying our earthly reality and bringing Jesus back to life.

The Muslim view may therefore be plausible without contradicting the Christian one that Jesus' death had to be real in the sense that in heaven people don't die. Jesus did die in our earthly reality, but he did not die in the heavenly one. Jesus' pain, suffering and death was real. Only after his earthly death did heaven "break in" and steal him back.

One time when Paul was in a house with other Christians teaching, a man got tired and fell from the upper level. He should have died, but didn't. His organs would have suffered from so much damage that it would have killed him. Maybe he did die, but he was immediately healed. It's like Wolverine in the X-Men saga. You can stab him a hundred times in the heart, but he always heals back to full health.

Jesus' miracles and resurrection could be thought of as a sign that in the future when the messianic kingdom is about to be established, heaven will once again "break in." As more and more people understand what it is like to live like the people in heaven, our earthly reality will become more compatible with the heavenly one. Heaven will break in more completely this time, becoming entrenched in our world socially, politically and economically.

Just a theory.:) ..... not that I have always been interested in eschatology.
 
Saltmeister said:
Also, if you know a few Muslims that you think would make a good contribution here, I would prefer ones that act "normal" (like yourself) and aren't "weird"...
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Most of my friends aren't the forum type... nor are they much into these types of discussions (which is why I spend time here, to get it out of my system)

But... there are two that might be interested... I'll ask em to join when i see em in a couple of months (hopefully, they wont get banned like the one i invited last year !!!)
 
I mean no disrespect in posting here in the Islam forum of Interfaith Forums..

The Qur'anic verses:

4:157 They say that: “We have killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of Allah.” Neither did they kill him, nor did they crucify him, but (it was made) to resemble for them. Surely those who differed in it (they were) in doubt about it. They did not have any knowledge about it except following the guess and surely they did not kill him (Jesus).

4:158 Allah raised him (Jesus) up to Him (in the heavens). Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.

Have been the defining ayat for those who respect the Qur'an as descriptive of what happened at the crucifixion of Jesus..

The Baha'i view is that the people thought it was surely the end of Jesus and that they "killed" Him. Physically He was crucified but spiritually it did not end the teachings of Jesus and His Spirit was "raised ..up to Him" meaning His Spirit could not be crucified.

There is another verse of Qur'an that speaks to how Martyrs are viewed..that they are not "dead". You can find this in Surih 2:154 and in Surih 3:169..

And say not of those who are slain in the Way of Allah: "They are dead". Nay they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

So Jesus being martyred on the cross was not "killed" as it states above in Surih 4:157.
 
arthra said:
I mean no disrespect in posting here in the Islam forum of Interfaith Forums..
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lolz, apparently, people are literally afraid of the Islamic board....

its kinda kool actually...


So Jesus being martyred on the cross was not "killed" as it states above in Surih 4:157.
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The only thing we know for sure, according to the Quran, is that Jesus (pbuh) was not deified. Whatever else happened to him after his trial seems to be irrelevant to the Quran. The other important question is whether or not he is going to return before Judgment Day as our messiah. As far as I know, the Quran presents no evidence for this and even contradicts such claims.
 
I'm not "afraid" of the Islamic board but do strongly support respecting the various boards or forums..and that's what I wanted to convey..respect. :)
 
arthra said:
I'm not "afraid" of the Islamic board but do strongly support respecting the various boards or forums..and that's what I wanted to convey..respect. :)
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You're welcome to join any discussion u want here man

no need 2 issue disclaimers :)
 
Re:

adambasher said:
Before answering the question whether Jesus died or not, let us first understand the meaning of death. In the Holy Qur’an, Allah defined death as ‘transfer’ (wafaat) from one world to another. At death, the soul leaves the earthly body and moves to another world. However, it is also possible that the soul and the body both leave this world, without being separated from each other. This will also be called death for that person. After death, the souls of the ordinary people stay asleep until the Day of Judgment. The souls of some selected prophets, however, can stay awake in a different kind of body in different worlds (in heavens). This can be proved from the well-known Tradition where the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) described his nightly journey (Isra and Miraj) to the seven heavens. He met some prophets in different heavens while ascending to the highest heaven and, ultimately, met and spoke to God. Here is the Tradition:

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345:
Narrated Abu Djar (ra):

Allah's Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca, the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered: 'Gabriel.' He asked, 'Is there anyone with you?' Gabriel replied, 'Yes, Muhammad is with me.' He asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he smiled and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' He replied, 'He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he smiles and when he looks towards his left he weeps.'
Then he ascended with me till he reached the second heaven and he (Gabriel) said to its gatekeeper, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper said to him the same as the gatekeeper of the first heaven had said and he opened the gate. Anas said: "Abu Djar added that the Prophet met Adam, Idris, Moses, Jesus and Abraham, he (Abu Djar) did not mention on which heaven they were but he mentioned that he (the Prophet) met Adam on the nearest heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. Anas said, "When Gabriel along with the Prophet passed by Idris, the latter said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' The Prophet asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Idris." The Prophet added, "I passed by Moses and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Moses.' Then I passed by Jesus and he said, 'Welcome! O pious brother and pious Prophet.' I asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Jesus.

Then I passed by Abraham and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Abraham. The Prophet added, 'Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens." Ibne Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?' I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.' I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.' Then Gabriel took me till we reached Sidra-tul-Muntaha (Lote tree of the utmost boundary) that was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk."

Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) met Adam on the first heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. The narrator did not mention here on which heaven he met Jesus. In another Tradition, however, it was mentioned that the meeting with Jesus took place on the fourth heaven.

Do we all agree that Prophet Adam, Idris, Moses and Abraham have died? Yes, right? After they died, where are they residing now? In different level of heavens, according to this authentic Tradition. Now, where did Mohammad meet Jesus? In the same place as the other prophets – in the heaven – in the fourth heaven, to be precise. So can there be any doubt that all those prophets are dead in relation to this world but are alive and living in the heavens and so is Prophet Jesus? How he died – by crucifixion or natural death or ‘raised up by Allah to heaven’ is a different question. Allah said in Qur’an:

4:157 They say that: “We have killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of Allah.” Neither did they kill him, nor did they crucify him, but (it was made) to resemble for them. Surely those who differed in it (they were) in doubt about it. They did not have any knowledge about it except following the guess and surely they did not kill him (Jesus).

4:158 Allah raised him (Jesus) up to Him (in the heavens). Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.

We have earlier mentioned that death itself means to leave this world or to transfer (wafaat) from this world to another. This transfer can happen only to the soul or both the soul and the body. Here Allah says that He ‘raised Jesus up to Him (onto heaven)’. Therefore, no matter in whatever method the departure of Jesus from this world took place, in the common sense of death (wafaat) he has been transferred to another world (heaven), meaning, he died, like all other prophets did.
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Jesus died on the cross to fullfill the ultimate sacrifice to save human kind of our sins and to show how much God loves us, just like how Abraham was ready to sacrifice his only reloved son Isaac to God, God did the same thing for only God can save mankind, not the prophets nor the angels but only God can save us. After dying on the cross Jesus resurrected to demonstrate that He is God and that God can not die and that the Kingdom of God is not of this world "nothing is impossible with God".
 
And [on account of] their saying: "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Messenger of Allah." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. But Allah raised him up unto Himself. And Allah is Ever All Powerful, All Wise. (Qur'an, 4:157-159)


Ibn Abu Hatim has narrated from Ibn 'Abbas saying: "When Allah wanted to lift him up to heaven, Jesus came to his companions in the house. There were twelve people, with some from among his disciples. He had just taken a bath, and his head was still dribbling with water, He said to them: 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.' Then he said: 'Who from among you will take my likeness and be killed in my place, so he will reach my rank?' A youth came forward. But Jesus said to him: 'Sit down.' Then he repeated the same question, and the same youth stood up and came forward, and said: 'I.' Jesus said: 'You are the one,' and then the likeness of Jesus was put on him, and Jesus was lifted up to the heaven from the window (in the roof) of the house."

The Jews came looking for him. They took the youth and killed him and then crucified him. Later the Christians became divided into three groups. One group, who are called Jacobites (Ya 'qubiyah), believe that it was God Himself among them who stayed with them as long as He wanted to, then went back to the heaven. Another group who are called Nestorian (Nasturiyah), believed that it was the son of Allah who was with them, and stayed among them as long as he wanted, then Allah lifted him up. But the group of true believers said that he was the slave of Allah and His Messenger who stayed among them as long as he wanted, then his Lord Allah took him up to Him. The two disbeliever groups joined together against the believer group and killed them, and so the real teachings of Islam taught by Jesus became obscure till Allah sent the Prophet Muhammad.

[Hafiz Ibn Katheer, Al Bidaya wan Nihayah]
 
Jesus Christ have predicted his own violent death in order to fulfil God's promise, when Pilate ask Jesus where is his kingdom, Jesus answered "my kingdom is not of this world". Jesus also predicted that Judas will betray him Mathew 26:25 "Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you".

And Peter will deny him 3x Mark 14:30 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice you yourself will disown me three times.".

Jesus said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" Mathew 5:17. Jesus is to fulfill God's promise to free us of our sins and to bring all man to God both the children of Isaac and Ishmael. Jesus death was the ultimate sacrifice his resurrection was the ultimate revelation of God's Almightiness that no man or spirit is more powerful than God, He is capable of doing anything and His becoming Jesus Christ was that proof.

Historical evidences have surface to validate the life and crucifixion of Jesus Christ with the latest discoveries of the Gospel of Thomas, Dead Sea Scrolls and the Shroud of Turin.

Thomas was fully convince that Jesus is God;
John 20:25 - 29 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

There is no doubt that Jesus Christ died on the cross and resurrected, God can not die, so is the true power of the Almighty God, man are not in the position to impose what God can and can not do.
 
My dear friend TG, this is not to offend any non-Muslim here allthough there might seem to be an air of self-righteousness about it, but here is a reply i gave on another forum regarding Christians and 'doubts' that proves Gods words to be true:

on seconds thought, i'll rephrase it here:

the general Christians do have doubts about their religion, and there may be a tiny minority that might have psyched themselves up to believe 'a hundred percent' but such 'belief', as it flies in the face of true evidence and logic, is really just a psyched up condition rather than genuine belief

did you know that in the gospel of Barnabas?it says, and that there is an opinion amongst christians, that it was someone else on that cross rather than Jesus [pbuh]; basically when that someone esle was taken on the cross, he looked similar to Jesus [pbuh] thus some guessed that he was Jesus, and others guessed that he was someone else, and these doubfull opinions have since been passed down among the generations

i have put this to the test with many christians; even hardcore evangelicals in the process of trying to convert me, when questioned have admitted that they just guess their religion to be true and cannot say that it is a hundred percent without a shred of doubt, thus if their is doubt in their whole religion, there has to be in any particulars about it

i mentioned this on another forum once, and several christians came along and proclaimed that they believed without a shred of doubt; i left it at that for apart from the Quranic verse i had no other evidence, but one by one in the next months, i caught them all expressing doubt and went straight in there and thanked them for proving the Quranic verse true!

:)
 
True Gabriel said:
Jesus Christ have predicted his own violent death in order to fulfil God's promise, when Pilate ask Jesus where is his kingdom, Jesus answered "my kingdom is not of this world". Jesus also predicted that Judas will betray him Mathew 26:25 "Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you".

And Peter will deny him 3x Mark 14:30 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice you yourself will disown me three times.".

Jesus said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" Mathew 5:17. Jesus is to fulfill God's promise to free us of our sins and to bring all man to God both the children of Isaac and Ishmael. Jesus death was the ultimate sacrifice his resurrection was the ultimate revelation of God's Almightiness that no man or spirit is more powerful than God, He is capable of doing anything and His becoming Jesus Christ was that proof.

Historical evidences have surface to validate the life and crucifixion of Jesus Christ with the latest discoveries of the Gospel of Thomas, Dead Sea Scrolls and the Shroud of Turin.

Thomas was fully convince that Jesus is God;
John 20:25 - 29 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

There is no doubt that Jesus Christ died on the cross and resurrected, God can not die, so is the true power of the Almighty God, man are not in the position to impose what God can and can not do.
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with overwhelming proof of the Bibles distortion, one cannot say for sure that those are infact Jesus' [pbuh] words, unless they match the undistorted revelation ofcourse; the Quran

as for the 'historical evidences'; well their forefathers were the deifiers of Jesus [pbuh] who killed off the true beleivers

And the interpretation of them verses as Jesus [pbuh] predicting his death are very far fetched, for they all apperantly mean something totally different; Jesus [pbuh] will indeed die, but this will be on his return

the mainstream islamic understanding is that Jesus [pbuh] was put to a 'minor death' i.e sleep, when he was raised to the heavens

Jesus [pbuh] not dying fits in with his return too; he will return as his life on earth has not finished yet; he has not died yet

And one cannot say that to go to the heavenly realms is a 'death' for the Prophet [saw] went there on his miraj, but we know that he only experienced the only one death, when he died at the end of his life
 
True Gabriel, this is an Islamic thread. The issues you are raising are best raised (IMHO) one level up in "Abrahamic Religions". Their word is different from your word. So talk about the differences in a common site. If you add the (probable, I think very probable) problems with the source, scribing, and translation of the sources you are quoting, it would make an interesting discussion!
 
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