human nature - inherently good or evil?

[Lunitik]

Agreed, but this is how long my lunch hour is, therefore this is how long I can practice walking meditation. After that when I return to my office I try to be as aware as I can without the walking part

Try not to think of it as "now I am meditating", "now I am not meditating, I am trying to remain aware"... these are the same things in reality. Meditation is simply taking time to purposefully practice not becoming attached, but when meditation becomes the object of attachment you are in a worse hurt than most. It is very difficult to realize religious practice is the new vehicle of the ego...

But did not Buddha himself practice purposeful meditation after bodhi? So, even if a "meditative state" is the goal for a life of awareness, shouldn't one continue to practice purposeful meditation, sitting (zazen) or walking (kinhin)?

You say you "do not stop meditating to sit and meditate", but Buddha apparently found value in this "doing"?

I think that Buddha continued meditating purposefully simply because it is better than busying yourself out of discomfort. Most people, if you watch, there will be certain ticks and other signs they simply want to escape what is happening when they have to wait. This is the nature of boredom, this is the root cause of most types of frustration - for instance in traffic.

Buddha basks in aloneness, he values that time, but it is not that meditation has started now and soon it will be finished. He is constantly meditating, it is his natural state. Most people fear loneliness, loneliness is not the same though, loneliness is the desire for company. Being alone can be very beautiful, but you have to be comfortable with your own being - this is really the purpose of meditation, but mind will not allow you to be comfortable in this place, it wants to move onto the next thing all the time.

 

[luecy7]

Another alternative is walking meditation. It's my main form of "meditation" (mindfulness/awareness). I put in one hour daily, and then 20 full days each year during a couple of backpacking trips. If a person hasn't tried it, I can highly recommend it. Although I also think the "objectless, do-nothing" form of meditation is also a useful practice to turn off the mind and I try to incorporate that once in a while...

I think that in order to fully engage with the world (DO), one also has to "leave the world" periodically to "recharge the batteries" (DO NOTHING). I try to find the right balance between the two in my personal life.

Leucy, do you practice any form of meditation?

I don't think of that as meditation. You are actually stimulating your brain with activity, and just using that to try to stop thinking about your structured work for awhile. While you are not feeding yourself one thing to think about, you are feeding yourself another. In my time I have gone on hikes, both day and overnight, skiing, flying, travelling, etc... both solo and with someone. I find that it is more beneficial for myself and others to spend the time together. Either way there is a great deal of stimulation with the scenery and activity at hand. If I question whether you remember some of the things you've seen or done on your trips, I bet you have a memory of it.

In my past, I have meditated using bio-feedback, which is highly productive for clearing the mind and muscle tension, if that is what is desired. Any little thought can be measured and seen. Briefly for a time I enjoyed the ability to relax, and utilized it to destroy someone at a competitive game of racquetball. If focus is what you desire, and especially if you have attention deficit disorder, meditation is useful. People naturally learn to do it though, as they wish to. As I study, I look for a quiet place and prefer to not have the radio or TV running. When I am working I know that distractions like a phone call can be valuable, but my work is more focused without them. So then, recovery from a distraction is key.

Realize though, that a game of any sport, is highly reactive to a situation with an attempt to control something. Similarly, meditation is an attempt to control something. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but I don't wish to fully control my brain. In fact, I wish to interact with others through it.

A good mental exercise in my view is to be able to shelve thoughts for later. Either write them down or mentally go through the motion of putting it in a drawer so that you can return to it later. Then, when there is time, look at the drawers and choose what to contemplate. When the drawers are re-opened, some solutions and good ideas may have already been placed there. This technique also helps to recover from a distraction. You might have to immediately drop your train of thought, answer the phone and switch gears. When the phone is hung up, recovering the train of thought is quicker if you shelved it and picked back up where you left off.

In my view Lunitik loves an effect, and he has come to view that as ultimate, or as God. As you can see I have been challenging his notion from a number of angles. He similarly accuses me of doing the same, believing that I call my own sub-conscious... God. His form of meditation is purposely and intentionally solo. If a distraction pops up, in my view he is looking for ways to make the distraction go away. If the phone rings, ignore it, or answer it and say very little. Imagine having those two proverbial angels on your shoulders: one talking into your ear and telling you one thing. Another talking into your other ear and telling you something other. One goal of meditation can be to make them both shut up and go away. Ignore them. Don't talk to them and don't respond to them. If you argue with them, your mind will be filled with activity. If you ignore them, they will lose interest, go away, and you will have cleared your mind. Lunitik prefers to think that I have a sub-conscious on one shoulder, and an 'ego' on the other... both just physical manifestations of the human mind, and more to his point: calling 'God' something from it.

So then carry that into the real world. Can you go for a hike with someone else, who might say things that you do not expect, and for better or worse: distract you? And similarly, will you think of them, and say things to them that they did not expect, and similarly be a distraction for them? Would that be 'meditation' to you? Lunitik will go further to say that this exchange of information is damaging, and helping to prevent you from experiencing his form of the ultimate. At least at first, his form of meditation needs to be solo because it is purposely, in my view, a solo exercise.

 

[luecy7]

What are you trying to accomplish by saying this? Are you asking me on a date? I'm confused.

Yes, I am inviting you on a date of up to 1 week to see a different walk of life. I think either you, or I, would benefit from it. You were judging me with a number of fabrications, which in my view is unhealthy for you, so I might as well give you something real to judge me with.

"We" here is humans... only through the ceasing of mind will projecting cease...

I think you are projecting yourself onto all humans. For humor and example, I will do the same: "We view that you have one large fabricated extrapolation there."

I do not stop meditating to sit and meditate, no.

Cute.

 

[Lunitik]

Yes, I am inviting you on a date of up to 1 week to see a different walk of life. I think either you, or I, would benefit from it. You were judging me with a number of fabrications, which in my view is unhealthy for you, so I might as well give you something real to judge me with.

Certainly, there is something wrong with us both if we couldn't each learn something from such an arrangement. Your statement of "different walk of life" is a projection though, you do not know enough of me to make this statement.

Also, I assure you I am not judging you though, I have made some assumptions and feel I am changing my mode of communication based on prior encounters, but I have no particular conception of you. I have only said I find it frustrating to communicate with you because you are too much literal in your understanding of my words - words have many meanings, but you will run with only one.

I think you are projecting yourself onto all humans. For humor and example, I will do the same: "We view that you have one large fabricated extrapolation there."

I... uhhh... *checks zipper*

I do not project at all, although I often use assumptions to make a point - they are generally perfectly correct based on experience and observation of those around me. There is always a particular direction I am going with my words, I point out how to return to something balanced. If I see an extreme being emphasized, I will pull to the other extreme because humans like compromise - the middle ground between two extremes is truth, this is perhaps the most important thing we can learn from Buddha.

 

[IowaGuy]

I don't think of that as meditation.

What's your definition of meditation? I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all version of purposeful meditation that will work for everyone; anything can be a form of meditation if one is of the right state of mind. Osho said "the whole life is meditating, and you can enter it from anywhere." I think this is what Lunitik is getting at with comments on meditation as a natural state.

Personally, one of my main goals with purposeful meditation is increasing mindfulness/awareness. Others may have different goals or purposes for meditation. Or for not meditating.

I also enjoy a casual stroll with friends, as you do. But for me there is a big difference between mindful walking meditation and just casually going for a walk with friends. Read that link I provided and you just might want to give it a try sometime . Of course, YMMV.

You make some good points about spending time with others, which I agree with; human social bonds are a strong indicator of happiness levels and longevity, not to mention a source of new ideas. But I have personally found that a significant amount of alone time is also important for my development. YMMV.

In my time I have gone on hikes, both day and overnight, skiing, flying, travelling, etc... both solo and with someone. I find that it is more beneficial for myself and others to spend the time together.

Sounds like together time works best for you. Others might prefer solo meditation. Like my grandma used to say; that's why ice cream comes in vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry flavors.

Lunitik will go further to say that this exchange of information is damaging, and helping to prevent you from experiencing his form of the ultimate.

I'll state the obvious, his form of the ultimate may not be the ultimate for everyone. He is certainly entitled to his opinion, but his opinion is just one of many on this interfaith forum.

meditation is an attempt to control something. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but I don't wish to fully control my brain. In fact, I wish to interact with others through it.

Do you think there is any benefit to training one's mind? Training the mind doesn't preclude interacting with others through it.

At least at first, his form of meditation needs to be solo because it is purposely, in my view, a solo exercise.

Well, Jesus purposely spent 40 days & 40 nights solo in the wilderness in spiritual preparation for his ministry, and Buddha purposely spent 49 days in solo meditation before his bodhi. Also, many native american traditions purposely sent young males solo into the wilderness for their "coming of age" or "vision quest." I'm sure there are other cultural examples that I'm not aware of.

In my opinion, solo is not necessarily better or worse, just a different experience from spending time with others. And for some of us the solo time is a core part of our life journey.

So, if solo meditation doesn't work for you, and you prefer to spend your time in the company of others rather than alone, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. But it has been a beneficial practice for many others, including Jesus and Buddha.

 

[Lunitik]

Meditation is not about mindfulness, it is about discovering your center and learning to act from that place. It creates a separation from all doer-ship so that you can maintain balance. It is not about training or practice either, though, for these are types of control - you are not aware when you are going through a routine, you are just going through the motions. Meditation is about creating a space where you can act naturally, without the need to control. The ordinary condition is that we are trying to control everything around us, and this is exactly the cause of suffering.

IowaGuy, you are quite correct though that most religious leaders have had a time meditating prior to teaching. Muhammad is another, also spending 40 days in a cave meditating. It is no accident that every great mystic has meditated, it is because it increases your capacity to encounter the ultimate. You say that my "ultimate" might differ from others, but it is not mine. It is simply truth, the ultimate is oneness, I am not distinct from it, I have originated from that. Truth isn't at the discretion of the onlooker, when I started getting into mysticism I had a disdain for such concepts but it kept coming up the more I read. Eventually, this was my surrender.

 

[Lunitik]

Jesus has said:

"If they ask you, ’what is the sign of your father in you?’
say to them, ’it is a movement and a rest.’"

What does this mean? He is talking about the state of meditation... all around there is movement, and you go on participating, but you maintain a certain separation and balance.

Think of it like a car wheel, continuously the tire is speeding around and around, yet the center never moves. You are that center, body and mind are the tire - mere peripheries.

Again he says:

"Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you shall find the
Kingdom; and because you come from it you shall go there again."

This is meditation as well, so even Jesus has meditated at length - although his followers disagree, and many outsiders will say he cannot be enlightened because he is not shown meditating in the accepted canon.

It is really a great injustice, you cannot grow spiritually without meditation, but always in the common religious practices it is not emphasized - Buddhism is really the only one that makes it a core thing for everyone.

I really hope the Gospel of Thomas catches on with all Christians, although their authorities have rejected it already... truly a beautiful text.

 

[Lunitik]

Most people are slaves to mind, mind is restless so you get bored, you feel you have to do something. Mind utterly warps everything you encounter in life, you will go on judging "she is beautiful" or "she is ugly" - both positive and negative is a judgement - and so you create your own little world. You go on planning and remembering, thus missing the now. You go on day dreaming, costing yourself job efficiency. You complain because things aren't going the way you imagined. So much stupidity in the name of intelligence because we have not yet figured out that wisdom does not come from this.

It is not a control, as I have said, it is simply ceasing to feed any of this...

 

[luecy7]

"If they ask you, ’what is the sign of your father in you?’
say to them, ’it is a movement and a rest.’"

What does this mean? He is talking about the state of meditation... all around there is movement, and you go on participating, but you maintain a certain separation and balance.

Think of it like a car wheel, continuously the tire is speeding around and around, yet the center never moves. You are that center, body and mind are the tire - mere peripheries.

It takes two to exchange words.

Again he says:

"Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you shall find the
Kingdom; and because you come from it you shall go there again."

This is meditation as well, so even Jesus has meditated at length - although his followers disagree, and many outsiders will say he cannot be enlightened because he is not shown meditating in the accepted canon.

It is really a great injustice, you cannot grow spiritually without meditation, but always in the common religious practices it is not emphasized - Buddhism is really the only one that makes it a core thing for everyone.

I really hope the Gospel of Thomas catches on with all Christians, although their authorities have rejected it already... truly a beautiful text.

A thief can say this is being a thief. A rapist can say this being a rapist. A murderer can say this is being the sole survivor. Not to say that meditation is a crime, but to say that it is not necessarily what those words indicate.

 

[Lunitik]

It takes two to exchange words.

It is because of separation that words are necessary, yes... this is the nature of the compassion Buddha teaches: they do not know how limited they are, have sympathy for it.

A thief can say this is being a thief. A rapist can say this being a rapist. A murderer can say this is being the sole survivor. Not to say that meditation is a crime, but to say that it is not necessarily what those words indicate.

What are you even talking about?

Please justify each statement you have made here, I can justify why it is meditation simply because it discusses being solitary... meditation is exactly a comfort with being alone - a ceasing of loneliness, fear of not having anyone around. It culminates in realizing you are exactly alone, and cannot be with other because there is no separation - it is because you have returned to where you have come from that this realization comes. You can now be called one of the elect, for it is a relatively rare happening during life.

 

[luecy7]

It is because of separation that words are necessary, yes... this is the nature of the compassion Buddha teaches: they do not know how limited they are, have sympathy for it.

Whereas, it does not take two for you to meditate.

What are you even talking about?

Please justify each statement you have made here, I can justify why it is meditation simply because it discusses being solitary...

Yes, you can always justify why you should fit that statement. Precisely my point.

meditation is exactly a comfort with being alone - a ceasing of loneliness, fear of not having anyone around. It culminates in realizing you are exactly alone, and cannot be with other because there is no separation - it is because you have returned to where you have come from that this realization comes.

Fabrication.

You can now be called one of the elect, for it is a relatively rare happening during life.

I submit that the self elect are not so rare.

 

[Lunitik]

Whereas, it does not take two for you to meditate.

Meditation can allow you to experience your true state.

Yes, you can always justify why you should fit that statement. Precisely my point.

I asked you to justify your own statement, Jesus is talking about meditation certainly, please justify how it can be describing anything else.

Fabrication.

What exactly do you think meditation is? The different instructions of the Yogi's and the like are merely to create busy-ness so you can be alone.

I submit that the self elect are not so rare.

Entirely too rare.

It is exactly the rarity of such knowing that makes things like suicide cults possible, simple minded people become impressed easily.

 

[luecy7]

Meditation can allow you to experience your true state.

I don't think so. In fact I think it is rather by not meditating, but by do-ing things in the interaction with others, that a person comes to see who they are. Then the door is even open to a transition of state, because whatever you can see can be changed. For example, the state of a child is more than what the child even knows, and meditation is not going to show the child their true state. However, as the child does things in the involvement with others, then spending that time reflecting and thinking about who they are, and who others are, opens up paths.

For example, as a potentially solo event, all the meditation in the world prior to taking the first baby steps will not reveal to the child what those steps are all about, though they may have had the capacity already, but hidden to them since birth.

I asked you to justify your own statement, Jesus is talking about meditation certainly, please justify how it can be describing anything else.

That is not so certain to me. In my opinion when Jesus spoke of a person leaving their parents, he does not mean necessarily to abandon them or the relationships with them; rather, to be resolute and solitary against duplicating sinful behavior.

Entirely too rare.

It is exactly the rarity of such knowing that makes things like suicide cults possible, simple minded people become impressed easily.

By the phrase, "self elect", I mean someone who elects themselves. It is good to seek the approval of others rather than blindly elect oneself as being good, or enlightened. I am guessing you disagree. Being solitary and elect is difficult because people may react negatively if you don't duplicate their behavior. For example: someone who wants to fight you, wants you to fight. Do you seek their approval by fighting them, or stand solitary against their behavior? Jesus said to not fight, or resist the evil, but to pick up the cross and follow his example.

 

[Thomas]

"If they ask you, ’what is the sign of your father in you?’
say to them, ’it is a movement and a rest.’"(Logion 50)

I would suggest a more revealing interpretation of 'movement' and 'rest' in the context of exitus/reditus of later Platonism (wisespread in Syria where the GoT was written) and also tags two of the Platonic triune of rest, movement, becoming (stasis-kinesis-genesis).

Interpreted this way, it also rather significantly re-orders the traditional Platonic triune, who held that souls dwelt in the eternal contemplation of God (rest), became satiated and turned away (movement) and thus fell, requiring the creation of the physical cosmos to catch the falling 'spark' (genesis) and this is why the material world was created, a place of punishment, then later correction (as in Origen) — although still fundamentally dualist, the spirit required to escape the flesh to re-ascend to its primordial place.

In Thomas, one can read an implication of a later doctrine that 're-ordered' the Platonic ternary according to the Revelation contained in Scripture and immediately overcome the inherent contradiction of the Platonic model.

Here the soul is not eternal, but created (genesis), and its creation is a movement (kinesis) from nothingness (creatio ex nihilo) to the ultimate being-ness, and rest (stasis) in God.

Seen in this way, the rather negative, dualist and pessimistic Platonic vision (and Origen brought this pessimism to the fore, for which he was soundly refuted) is reshaped according to a holistic and optimistic Christian vision.

"Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you shall find the
Kingdom; and because you come from it you shall go there again."(Logion 49)

This is problematic, reflecting the 'flight of the alone to the Alone' of Middle and Later Platonism, and standing (seemingly) in contention with the communal aspect which is fundamental to Christianity.

I really hope the Gospel of Thomas catches on with all Christians, although their authorities have rejected it already... truly a beautiful text.

The problem is, it's been surpassed by more useful and spiritually luminous texts ... more than a lifetime could get through, in fact, so if one was proposing texts to read, the GoT would be a long way down the list ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[wil]

The problem is, it's been surpassed by more useful and spiritually luminous texts ... more than a lifetime could get through, in fact, so if one was proposing texts to read, the GoT would be a long way down the list ...

God bless,

Thomas

Have you read the Gospel of Thomas Thomas?

What other non cannocal text that was passed up at the time would you put ahead of it?

And would you say the same.....The problem is, it's been surpassed by more useful and spiritually luminous texts ... more than a lifetime could get through, in fact, so if one was proposing texts to read.....(Revelation, Jonah, Leviticus, Numbers, etc ) would be a long way down on the list?

 

[seattlegal]

Inherently empty, thus full of possibilities. (unless, of course, you are full of something else, then the only possibility is to be emptied.)

 

[IowaGuy]

I The problem is, it's been surpassed by more useful and spiritually luminous texts ... more than a lifetime could get through, in fact, so if one was proposing texts to read, the GoT would be a long way down the list ...

What texts written by man could possibly be more spiritually luminous than the actual sayings of Jesus? (which the GoT supposedly contains)

Or does your "spiritually luminious texts" refer to Bahai scripture, Book of Mormon, and other more recent "revealed" texts?

 

[Lunitik]

I think it is rather by not meditating, but by do-ing things in the interaction with others, that a person comes to see who they are.

You have entered this world alone, you will leave it alone, how can anything but being alone show what you naturally are?

 

[radarmark]

Most of the writings of the Christian Mystics meet that criteria, and I believe this is what Thomas is alluding to. Like Gregory of Nyssa, "Cloud of Unknowing", "Imitattion of Christ", Catherine of Siena, Julian or Norwich, Boehme, Eckhardt, Avila, St John of the Cross, and, of course, all the early Quakers. I'd put them (in terms of teaching the fine art of the mystic) in front of GoT.

 

[Lunitik]

I would suggest a more revealing interpretation of 'movement' and 'rest' in the context of exitus/reditus of later Platonism (wisespread in Syria where the GoT was written) and also tags two of the Platonic triune of rest, movement, becoming (stasis-kinesis-genesis).

I believe I used the imagery of a wheel, where the center is still while the circumference is busy. What can be more revealing than this? I have described the state of enlightenment, while you go on doing in the world, you remain constant in your center just watching all that happens.

This is problematic, reflecting the 'flight of the alone to the Alone' of Middle and Later Platonism, and standing (seemingly) in contention with the communal aspect which is fundamental to Christianity.

It is not problematic at all if you are not Christian.

The problem is, it's been surpassed by more useful and spiritually luminous texts ... more than a lifetime could get through, in fact, so if one was proposing texts to read, the GoT would be a long way down the list

What has surpassed the GoT? It contains everything that is necessary, it should be the first text all Christians read when they become intrigued by theosis - nothing I have seen within the Christian spectrum even comes close. There are superior texts, but nothing Christianity has developed.

Feel free to show me I am wrong here...