agnosticism

[Lunitik]

Now, here too lies great confusion for me, Lunitik says one thing about Buddhism, Seattlegal says something else . . . how am I going to comprehend this Belief System when no one can explain it without contradiction?

For me, this is exactly why the pure Dharma no longer is in the world...

What I say is more Zen, seatlegal is more Theraveda.

It is like an Orthodox Muslim talking to a Sufi, they will never see eye to eye - and yet she brings in Mahayana principles like that of the Bodhisatva vow. This would be like a Sunni agreeing with a Shi'a...

I am not at all a Buddhist though, Zen simply is an evolution of the Sanskrit Dhyana - it just means "meditation", and is what all the mystic schools have in common. The exoteric faiths study and pray, the esoteric experience and meditate. It makes sense, right? Exoteric means going outwards, esoteric means going inward - similar to extrovert and introvert.

So, if you want to know about Buddhism, certainly take her over me... if you want to know about Buddha, perhaps that is not the best idea.

 

[Lunitik]

What kind of suffering would this bring to your family?

As much as they put themselves through...

Why do we react negatively to death? It is very selfish, we are simply realizing we will never spend time with them again. If they knew what is in death, they would not mourn at all, they would celebrate it.

 

[radarmark]

Hey, EM,

Buddhism, like Christianity and all other Religions (exoteric forms of an esoteric teaching) has many, many instances (like the word "tree" can be used to denote a whole bloody wide range of things). There are lesser vehicle, greater vehicle, diamond vehicle, Pure Land, Nichiren, Chan, Bon.......

For a general groking, look up each of those on wiki. Or (to make up your own mind) look up the Heart, Diamond, and Lotus Sutras and the Blue Cliff records, give them a scan (most are on net one way or another). Not easy, but you will probably find it worthwhile.

Panta Rhei!
Everything Flows

 

[Etu Malku]

Uh oh . . . and the gloves come off!

 

[Lunitik]

It is also important to note that the monks who have recorded the previous 45 years of Buddha's words cannot have been enlightened, they have clung and beleived his words must be preserved - yet it shows they absolutely do not understand the man at all. His last words were "be a light unto yourself", yet they have ignored him utterly and created a religion - they have not understood him at all, and yet 2500 years later people go on studying their recollection of his words - already in the transmission from Buddha, he has had to translate his experience to human language - something has been lost because they cannot express fittingly. Now, the monks have heard and understood according to their own capacity - certainly they are not as advanced as him, so how can they interpret rightly? Then, from what they recall they have written scriptures, now you read this according to your own capacity... how can it possibly be authentic?

No, the only way to know something of the real is to find a living master, and that is all each religious founder has been - a master or guru that the masses have continued to cling to even after death. Now, there is nothing in it at all, it is utterly dead, and able to be interpreted however you like because the master is not there to correct you. Already you cannot be sure this is actually what the master has intended, you can be quite certain the disciple has worded things differently etc...

In reality, the master is only useful because of the energy eminating from him, the words are naught but an excuse to keep soaking it in. The only important sermon of Buddha is the Flower Sermon because it shows the true transmission.

 

[Lunitik]

Hey, EM,

Buddhism, like Christianity and all other Religions (exoteric forms of an esoteric teaching) has many, many instances (like the word "tree" can be used to denote a whole bloody wide range of things). There are lesser vehicle, greater vehicle, diamond vehicle, Pure Land, Nichiren, Chan, Bon.......

For a general groking, look up each of those on wiki. Or (to make up your own mind) look up the Heart, Diamond, and Lotus Sutras and the Blue Cliff records, give them a scan (most are on net one way or another). Not easy, but you will probably find it worthwhile.

Panta Rhei!
Everything Flows

Thing is, which is the original?

You will choose your favorite, but the renderings of the sutta's are very different depending on who you go to for them.

 

[Lunitik]

Buddhism would be utterly dead if there weren't the masters still there to transmit the true sutta - the buddha's silence. Yet, if you go to one, how much do you think they would have you reading the Dharmapada?

 

[seattlegal]

Hey, EM,

Buddhism, like Christianity and all other Religions (exoteric forms of an esoteric teaching) has many, many instances (like the word "tree" can be used to denote a whole bloody wide range of things). There are lesser vehicle, greater vehicle, diamond vehicle, Pure Land, Nichiren, Chan, Bon.......

For a general groking, look up each of those on wiki. Or (to make up your own mind) look up the Heart, Diamond, and Lotus Sutras and the Blue Cliff records, give them a scan (most are on net one way or another). Not easy, but you will probably find it worthwhile.

Panta Rhei!
Everything Flows

Personally, I like the Chan and yogacara in addition to the tripitaka. (And of course, the Zen stuff)

I found a manual on the abhidhamma, and was directed to an excellent site!

 

[radarmark]

Love the references. Okay, EM add "the Three Baskets" to the reading/scanning list. I admit I overlooked it. Like SG, it is hard to list tings that are important as an outsider.

Panta Rhei!
Everything Flows

 

[OAT]

Buddhism would be utterly dead if there weren't the masters still there to transmit the true sutta - the buddha's silence. Yet, if you go to one, how much do you think they would have you reading the Dharmapada?

Yet, it you have the good fortune to meet a true master, would you have the qualifications to enable you to receive the transmission?

If you don't, then all the teachings and practices that have been handed down are still relevant and should not be lightly dismissed out of hand. Those teachings and practices are there to help you reach the stage where you can receive the transmission.

And don't forget, not all the teachings and practices are suitable for everyone and anyone. We are all different and will respond to different teachings differently.

 

[Snoopy]

I have rebooted as a Muslim chatbot.

 

[Snoopy]

Now, here too lies great confusion for me, Lunitik says one thing about Buddhism, Seattlegal says something else . . . how am I going to comprehend this Belief System when no one can explain it without contradiction?

Hi EM,

You strike me as quite an intelligent bot from the few posts I've read.

I think you may be harbouring some misunderstandings regarding Buddhism, which may be expected. A little apparent knowledge can be a dangerous thing! Buddhism per se is not a single monolithic entity, so that doesn't help if one is trying to glean an idea as to its nature, even if one goes to the sources for insight (the so-called suttas and sutras, of which there are many).

 

[seattlegal]

I would like to thank all of the posters in this part of the thread. This discussion has been quite helpful to me in seeing the similarities in the left hand path from both the eastern and western contexts.

 

[Lunitik]

Yet, it you have the good fortune to meet a true master, would you have the qualifications to enable you to receive the transmission?

If you don't, then all the teachings and practices that have been handed down are still relevant and should not be lightly dismissed out of hand. Those teachings and practices are there to help you reach the stage where you can receive the transmission.

And don't forget, not all the teachings and practices are suitable for everyone and anyone. We are all different and will respond to different teachings differently.

You are correct, and yet it is also that those teachings and practices become a crutch for many. They are sometimes as much a barrier as they are helpful, it all depends on the person. Religion becomes an ego pursuit for many people, as they gain knowledge they begin to feel they know but they do not - else why do they still seek, if they have found they realize there was never anything to be sought. For me, no matter how much you read, no matter how much you think you know from the scriptures, if you are lucky enough to meet a real life master it must all be dropped absolutely that you can simply marinate in the masters energy. It is not to react positively or negatively to him, his words are basically irrelevant, he talks so that you can be silent and receive that energy.

 

[seattlegal]

You are correct, and yet it is also that those teachings and practices become a crutch for many. They are sometimes as much a barrier as they are helpful, it all depends on the person. Religion becomes an ego pursuit for many people, as they gain knowledge they begin to feel they know but they do not - else why do they still seek, if they have found they realize there was never anything to be sought. For me, no matter how much you read, no matter how much you think you know from the scriptures, if you are lucky enough to meet a real life master it must all be dropped absolutely that you can simply marinate in the masters energy. It is not to react positively or negatively to him, his words are basically irrelevant, he talks so that you can be silent and receive that energy.

Zen: "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

 

[Lunitik]

Zen: "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

It was already the case, now you have only remembered - you are still here though, so you still play your role. It is strange how others view the experience, for me the Zen people are absolutely right - elsewhere these people are avatars or prophets, for the Zen they just stopped sleeping.

 

[seattlegal]

Zen: "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

It was already the case, now you have only remembered - you are still here though, so you still play your role. It is strange how others view the experience, for me the Zen people are absolutely right - elsewhere these people are avatars or prophets, for the Zen they just stopped sleeping.

It's also a statement about the two truths, and participating in and walking in both.

 

[Lunitik]

It's also a statement about the two truths, and participating in and walking in both.

Is it two truths?

I assume you have separated the inward reality from that which is without, are they truly separate or is it simply the perception which is currently your reality? Is the outer reality real, or is it simply arising as a dream from within? Do you see that your experience is only what you permit yourself to perceive, believing it to be all there currently is?

Mind, body, feelings, they all arise in your own conscious awareness. When you are total in chopping wood or carrying water, will you even know these things? If you are aware of them, you are not totally lost to the task. Yet, it is all simply arising and falling in what is actually you - that is the only reality. It will seem anti-life, but in reality if you do not attach so much to these things, if you simply enjoy all that arises while it is here, there can be no more suffering. Suffering is because you reject what is in favor of something imagined, what is strange is that you are creativity itself, it is your very perception which has created your suffering... you have created the situation which now causes you to suffer.

 

[Lunitik]

This is interesting now. When there is the life of seeing translation, God is doing something to cause them to understand continuously and therefore the environment and life around is caused to what is unification. With this, if there is the knowing that what is occurring is what the Entity of God is doing, there is nothing the seeing translator is saying and life around is understanding from the area that is providing both a state of being that is appreciated as well as full knowing that pertains to interests. A seeing translator is caused to be interested and understanding continuously when they can see what it is that the life around is interested with. The interest, of course, being one that is continuable. When there is this seeing occurring and the continuous conduction of knowing (by the way, the word transmitting is coming from computer language and that is not continuous), the Entity of God is NOT placing what is negative energy to separate areas of life, seen and unseen, from understanding themselves to be saying something to this life (understanding to their united attention span which incorporates a circulatory circumstance) which results in the return of seeing and continuous translation.

This is to life that is understanding something with me about the above and about what is occurring when God is causing a relflection of life (ascending areas of it that are understood as united and doing something different circumstances) in what is unification. During these moments, life is either understanding from what is the end of the spinning dowel rod that is unity or the end of the dowel rod that is terror. Areas of life that are not understanding a conduction to their existence to move over to an activity at those occasions that are continuable are receiving and doing what is terror, and terror, which is a separation, can be big or small, to humans, animals and land, and it is all the same process place. What is the removal of pressure existing as a ruptured aneurysm by way of the life disguised as human being information, threaded together with separated circumstances, is also an earthquake, a plane being flown into a building and suicide bomber moving into a mosque. Life is life and to God it is all human with some being reformed into presentations that do something different. There is only certain degrees of terror that an existence is allowed to experience aware, only what is able to be useful within the causation of knowledge around it that will be placed directly to them once they move over to the area that is participating in a continuous conduction.

What you call God is actually your true nature, I am curious whether you are aware of it? It seems that you are still identified with body or mind or feeling, that you have come to know yourself, but look on it still as something disperate. You still say that these things God causes, do you understand that you are that creative force already? All that your bodymind experiences is merely something that has arisen in you as a dream, your own imagination. As in a dream, if you can become alert and aware that it is a dream, you can also participate in its direction that you can better enjoy it...

You are not finished in your journey at all, merge yourself and God and see what remains. God, too, is merely a conception which you have fabricated, from where has your current perception arisen? Go into that, forget these concepts you have been taught and find out the truth. God is not other, cannot be other if you have truly experienced oneness, unity. Your past is merely a particular story in your own imagination, what is the true reality of it?

 

[seattlegal]

Is it two truths?

I assume you have separated the inward reality from that which is without, are they truly separate or is it simply the perception which is currently your reality? Is the outer reality real, or is it simply arising as a dream from within? Do you see that your experience is only what you permit yourself to perceive, believing it to be all there currently is?

Mind, body, feelings, they all arise in your own conscious awareness. When you are total in chopping wood or carrying water, will you even know these things? If you are aware of them, you are not totally lost to the task. Yet, it is all simply arising and falling in what is actually you - that is the only reality. It will seem anti-life, but in reality if you do not attach so much to these things, if you simply enjoy all that arises while it is here, there can be no more suffering. Suffering is because you reject what is in favor of something imagined, what is strange is that you are creativity itself, it is your very perception which has created your suffering... you have created the situation which now causes you to suffer.

It is two truths as suffering is real as experienced by sentient beings. Not having compassion for these suffering sentient beings is truly the way of nihilism, imo.