John 10:16 - interpretations?

[IowaGuy]

Hi y'all, my sister and another Southern Baptist were recently discussing interpretations of Jesus' sheep parable; specifically John 10:16 - "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

How do some of you interpret this verse?

One argument I've heard is that the sheep "not of this fold" could be referring to folks of other religions such as Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. In other words, they can still go to heaven even though they aren't Christians. But then that seems to contradict Jesus' earlier statement in the same chapter, when talking about leaders of the sheep in John 10:8 - "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them." This would seem to me to indicate that Krishna, Buddha, etc; any previous "Gods" were considered "thieves and robbers" from Jesus' point of view.

Another interpretation I've heard of John 10:16 is that the sheep "not of this fold" are ancient Native Americans, Africans, etc; peoples who were born before Jesus' time and were never exposed to his teachings. They could go to heaven even though they weren't officially Christians.

Another interpretation is that it's just a parable and doesn't override the specific message in other parts of the bible that only Christians will be in heaven.

Other thoughts on the verse? Is it saying non-Christians can go to heaven? Or something else?

Many of my family members struggle with the fact that someone they love (me) is not Christian and therefore will not join them in eternity (in their view). I personally am agnostic towards heaven/afterlife, but heaven/hell weighs very heavy on many of my family. I'm trying to convince my sister that this verse could possibly allow for non-Christians to be in heaven alongside Christians, as I hope it might give her some peace of mind. So far, no dice; but curious what thoughts the forum might have that I can ponder...

 

[Nick the Pilot]

I firmly believe that John and Jesus taught the ideas of reincarnation and karma. Here they are saying there is a need to teach reincarnation, karma, etc., to the people. (And I totally agree.)

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Jesus said

"I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but by me"

thats my paraphrase.

christians often use this to condemn all non christians to hell. But if you look more closely then its does not really add up.

"I am" is supposed to be "The Great I AM" that moses met.

"I AM WHAT I AM, I WILL be what I will be" all sounds very much like conciousness to me ?

so if thats the case then Jesus is not saying that Jesus the person is the only way to God, he is saying that God or Logos or conciousness is the only way.

Now what what does mean ? well I guess its a bit deeper than many christians realise.

many people could be connecting to or going through this "I AM" but applying a different label to it.

so the whole doctrine of exclusivity is pretty shallow really.

just to add that other sheep could be other labels that ascribed to the logos.

 

[seattlegal]

All who have come before him would be with respect to the people he was addressing, otherwise he would not have to use the term "other sheep" later on. In other words, it was a jab at the Pharasees, who tried to "steal" the ability of people to "forgive" in that they wanted it all to go through their religious association.

Just my opinion.

 

[Thomas]

I firmly believe that John and Jesus taught the ideas of reincarnation and karma.

Evidently there is something of a credibility gap between what you believe and what was actually taught.

If you can supply any material evidence to support your beliefs, I'm afraid they must rest with you as misunderstandings of the tradition.

Even the Dalai Lama recognised that Jesus did not teach reincarnation, and understood the reasons why.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Hi Iowa Guy —

How do some of you interpret this verse?

In the Catholic (and I believe Orthodox) traditions, it is taught that the promises made by Christ are open to all of good heart, regardless.

In the parable, Christ is lambasting the Pharisees, the authorities, and indeed anyone who seeks to lead the innocent astray.

Another aspect is that Christ is making known the fact that the message He brings is universal, and not confined to a particular cultural group — that is the Gentiles as well as the Jews.

And yes, His promises are spoken from Eternity, so they have no beginning nor end in time ... Christ was crucified before the world was made ...

From a Christian perspective, the Jews are our elder brothers (as in the Parable of the Prodigal Son), and should have (and still can) show the way...

I'm sorry your family feel as they do.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[wil]

Jesus said

"I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but by me"

G!d is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to this understanding without developing the conscioiusness of oneness with all.

thats my paraphrase.

I'll adress the parable, later but thanx NCOT for that!

 

[radarmark]

NCOT, wonderful interpretation. Is Jesus speaking as Jesus the Man, Christ the Savior, or Part of the Trinity. The last (given the contest) seems, as you said, the way to go.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

G!d is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to this understanding without developing the conscioiusness of oneness with all.

Understanding is one thing, participation in the being of it is another, and to do that, requires 'living' and I use the term loosely, in the intersubjectivity of the all, which requires the negation of oneness as a mode of subjectivity.

It's the consciousness of the oneness that keeps each and every-one separate and distinct.

"He that findeth his life (the consciousness of the oneness with all), shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it."
(Matthew 10:39, 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, 17:33, John 12:25)

When we know Christ in me, we are still under the illusion, when we know we are in Christ ... then we die to ourselves, and live all in all.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[annokhee]

Then followed Christ's resurrection-corner stone of the earth.
". . . laid the foundations of the earth ?. . . Who laid the corner stone thereof ;when the morning stars sang together ,and all the sons of God shouted for joy ?" Job 38 :4 ,6,7

 

[wil]

Hi Wil —

Understanding is one thing, participation in the being of it is another, and to do that, requires 'living' and I use the term loosely, in the intersubjectivity of the all, which requires the negation of oneness as a mode of subjectivity.

It's the consciousness of the oneness that keeps each and every-one separate and distinct.

"He that findeth his life (the consciousness of the oneness with all), shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it."
(Matthew 10:39, 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, 17:33, John 12:25)

When we know Christ in me, we are still under the illusion, when we know we are in Christ ... then we die to ourselves, and live all in all.

God bless,

Thomas

In him we live and breathe and have our being....

 

[Amergin]

Hi y'all, my sister and another Southern Baptist were recently discussing interpretations of Jesus' sheep parable; specifically John 10:16 - "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

How do some of you interpret this verse?

I read that the Southern Baptist Convention was primarily founded to defend Black Slavery when the other Baptists refused. It supported Southern Secession and continued Black Slavery. After the Civil War the SBC opposed Black voting, interracial marriage, interracial dating, attendance in white churches. The SBC supported the KKK, looked the other way in Black lynchings, opposed the teaching of Evolution, opposed Black voting with poll taxes hitting poor blacks, requiring a test that all white automatically pass and blacks automatically failed.

It is quite clear who the SBC considered not in the flock and that produced horrible suffering on a million Americans living in the South. The KKK swore in new members with a Protestant Bible, and membership excluded not only Blacks, but Catholics and Jews. It is the most evil religion invented in America.

Amergin

 

[arthra]

This is really a side issue...

but before I became a Baha'i, I was raised in a (Northern) now what's called an American Baptist Convention church and always wondered about the split between north and south.. Here's what wikipedia has:

In 1844, Basil Manly, Sr., president of the University of Alabama, prominent preacher and a planter who owned 40 slaves, drafted the "Alabama Resolutions" and presented them to the Triennial Convention. These included the demand that slaveholders be eligible for denominational offices to which the Southern associations contributed financially. These resolutions failed to be adopted. Georgia Baptists then decided to test the claimed neutrality by recommending a slaveholder to the Home Mission Society as a missionary. The Home Mission Society's board refused to appoint him, noting that missionaries were not allowed to take servants with them (so clearly could not take slaves) and that they would not make a decision that appeared to endorse slavery. Southern Baptists considered this an infringement of their rights to determine their own candidates.[17]

Southern Baptist Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know that I would go so far as to say

"It is the most evil religion invented in America."

But regarding the verse:

John 10:16 - "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

Some Mormon missionaries said it referred to the lost tribe that went to America and they believe Jesus appeared in the Americas..

Another explanation I heard was that Jesus made His way to Afghanistan/Kashmir after His crucifixion and taught the descendents of Jews there who had been exiled there..Ahmadiyyih Muslims support this as I recall.

I checked on what Abdul-Baha said about "lost tribes" and this is what I found:

"When the Messianic star of Jesus Christ dawned, he declared he had come to gather together the lost tribes or scattered sheep of Moses. He not only shepherded the flock of Israel, but brought together people of Chaldea, Egypt, Syria, ancient Assyria and Phoenicia. These people were in a state of utmost hostility, thirsting for the blood of each other with the ferocity of animals; but His Holiness Jesus Christ brought them together, cemented and united them in his cause and established such a bond of love among them that enmity and warfare were abandoned."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 22

 

[Dream]

Then followed Christ's resurrection-corner stone of the earth.
". . . laid the foundations of the earth ?. . . Who laid the corner stone thereof ;when the morning stars sang together ,and all the sons of God shouted for joy ?" Job 38 :4 ,6,7

In case I missed your first post, Hi! Such an intriguing name. Hope you stay around and tell some more riddles.

 

[Saltmeister]

But then that seems to contradict Jesus' earlier statement in the same chapter, when talking about leaders of the sheep in John 10:8 - "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them." This would seem to me to indicate that Krishna, Buddha, etc; any previous "Gods" were considered "thieves and robbers" from Jesus' point of view.

"Thieves and robbers" could refer to anything. Modern and contemporary Christians simply interpret this to mean rivals of Christianity or leaders and masters of religions to be converted.

However, this seems to overlook the fact that Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience. Moreover, if the thieves and robbers included earlier prophets, then surely Jesus would be speaking ill of Moses, Abraham and David and that just wouldn't make sense. It's more likely that Jesus was talking about contemporaries. Jesus wasn't the only "teacher" or miracle-working Jew around. There were others. He could have been calling these other teachers and miracle-workers "thieves and robbers."

Another interpretation I've heard of John 10:16 is that the sheep "not of this fold" are ancient Native Americans, Africans, etc; peoples who were born before Jesus' time and were never exposed to his teachings. They could go to heaven even though they weren't officially Christians.

If Jesus' audience were Jews, he may have been talking about non-Jews/Gentiles. If heaven can be equated with what Jews call the "world to come," and we receive a place in the world to come by becoming "Righteous Gentiles," then there are at least two ways of achieving that. To establish a relationship with God a Gentile must acknowledge that there is one God and turn away from idolatry. Therefore, one way is to become a Muslim.

The other way is to become Christian. The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam absolutely forbids paganism while Christianity permits "paganism" with the "idolatry" removed from it. Islam is strict. Christianity is liberal and lenient. A Gentile who wants to be "righteous" therefore has two options.

Christianity is really an agenda/program of modifying "pagan" cults and traditions to remove the "idolatry" from them so that there is a better chance of followers of these traditions being accepted as "Righteous Gentiles" under Jewish Law. The first traditions/cults to be officially modified were the Greek and Roman cults and philosophies. This is the goal of Paul's epistles. The question of whether native Americans/Africans, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, etc. receive a place in the world to come depends on whether they can be regarded as "Righteous Gentiles" under Jewish Law.

Because Greek and Roman paganism were modified to remove its idolatry and this is why Christians are accepted as "righteous," there is no reason why this can't happen with native Americans/Africans, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, etc. Each of them would become their own variant of "Christianity" -- becoming Americanianity, Africanianity, Buddhianity, Hindianity, Wiccianity, etc.

The question therefore is not whether they are Christian, but can they be adapted so that their followers can be "Righteous Gentiles" under Jewish Law?

 

[annokhee]

I can't help myself but ' to tell you more riddles . ' Those mighty men /heroes of old knew all you want is riddle . So they fill your play room with myths pyramids megaliths stonehenge . . to play with , and still you play . Please wake up , will you ?

 

[annokhee]

Such an intriguing name.

annokhee means I am it's hebrew .
When mythical jesus born it is said of him " A light to lighten the Gentiles ,and the glory of thy people ISRAEL . " , but now in this generation the revealing 'I am ' ,the practical Messiah ,when he come to "give knowledge of salvation " ,the sovereignity of ISRAEL will be higher and higher .
To follow the thread i must add . . . to follow jesus and anyone as historical , it robs the core of spirituality . There are many FOLDS , the sheep who follow historical SHEPHERD ,mythical and spiritual /practical . When he says "other sheep I have , which are not of this fold " -the spiritual one .

 

[IowaGuy]

one way is to become a Muslim

Salt - thanks for sharing that viewpoint. Doesn't that contradict other scripture where Jesus says he is the only way to heaven? John 14:6, Acts 4:10-12, John 3:16, Mark 16:14-16, etc.

Many Christians that I know, don't believe there are any Muslims in heaven per such scripture.

Actually one of my biggest turn-offs of Christianity is the belief that it is absolutely the only way to "heaven", and any other religion is inferior. This might not be the view of most of us on an Interfaith forum, but in mainstream America at least, it is the prevailing philosophy for Christians. Just tune in to Christian talk radio or a televangelist show for a bit and you'll see what I mean.

Your viewpoint of heaven being accessible to monotheists without idolatry (to paraphrase) doesn't seem to fit that mainstream view; are you looking at it from more of a Jewish Law point of view? Or are Christians on your side of the pond just more open-minded and have a different view of the New Testament?

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Salt - thanks for sharing that viewpoint. Doesn't that contradict other scripture where Jesus says he is the only way to heaven? John 14:6, Acts 4:10-12, John 3:16, Mark 16:14-16, etc.

Many Christians that I know, don't believe there are any Muslims in heaven per such scripture.

and vice versa, its a common muslim belief that all non muslims will go to hell.

Actually one of my biggest turn-offs of Christianity is the belief that it is absolutely the only way to "heaven", and any other religion is inferior. This might not be the view of most of us on an Interfaith forum, but in mainstream America at least, it is the prevailing philosophy for Christians. Just tune in to Christian talk radio or a televangelist show for a bit and you'll see what I mean.

Your viewpoint of heaven being accessible to monotheists without idolatry (to paraphrase) doesn't seem to fit that mainstream view; are you looking at it from more of a Jewish Law point of view? Or are Christians on your side of the pond just more open-minded and have a different view of the New Testament?

 

[Ben Masada]

Hi y'all, my sister and another Southern Baptist were recently discussing interpretations of Jesus' sheep parable; specifically John 10:16 - "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

How do some of you interpret this verse?

One argument I've heard is that the sheep "not of this fold" could be referring to folks of other religions such as Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. In other words, they can still go to heaven even though they aren't Christians. But then that seems to contradict Jesus' earlier statement in the same chapter, when talking about leaders of the sheep in John 10:8 - "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them." This would seem to me to indicate that Krishna, Buddha, etc; any previous "Gods" were considered "thieves and robbers" from Jesus' point of view.

Another interpretation I've heard of John 10:16 is that the sheep "not of this fold" are ancient Native Americans, Africans, etc; peoples who were born before Jesus' time and were never exposed to his teachings. They could go to heaven even though they weren't officially Christians.

Another interpretation is that it's just a parable and doesn't override the specific message in other parts of the bible that only Christians will be in heaven.

Other thoughts on the verse? Is it saying non-Christians can go to heaven? Or something else?

Many of my family members struggle with the fact that someone they love (me) is not Christian and therefore will not join them in eternity (in their view). I personally am agnostic towards heaven/afterlife, but heaven/hell weighs very heavy on many of my family. I'm trying to convince my sister that this verse could possibly allow for non-Christians to be in heaven alongside Christians, as I hope it might give her some peace of mind. So far, no dice; but curious what thoughts the forum might have that I can ponder...

IMHO, Jesus was referring to other Jews who were not part of the group of 12 neither of the group of 70. He could not be referring to the Ten Tribes, because he knew that they had got lost among the Gentiles. And he could not be referring to the Gentiles because he had an aversion to Gentiles. Every time he sent his disciples in a mission to take the good news about the Kingdom of God, he would warn them not to go into the way of the Gentiles and not even enter a Samaritan town. (Mat. 10:5) In another occasion, he even addressed the Gentiles as dogs. (Mat. 15:26)
Ben