Is anybody came from heavens to this world in the human history? No

wil

UNeyeR1
Moderator
Messages
23,154
Reaction score
2,656
Points
108
Location
a figment of your imagination
As i ponder the ebb and flow of a thread...and life...

I wish you the best...health issues are a pain in the arse....sometimes literally!

We are experimenting with health care for citizens...but still desire a for profit system where companies can reap billions.

Solutions are few and far between...when we don't see reality working I think it is common to look elsewhere for solace.
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
was merely pointing out that I consider what Jesus taught us [ "his words", if you like ] to be the heart of his message.
Assuming the majority of Muslims will never read the Gospels -- what did the Quran Jesus actually say? What words?

@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi
What did the Amadiyya Jesus actually teach in India? What words?
 
Last edited:

muhammad_isa

Save Our Souls
Messages
3,271
Reaction score
702
Points
108
Location
Worcester UK
Assuming the majority of Muslims will never read the Gospels -- what did the Quran Jesus actually say? What words?
Well, Jesus didn't say to believe in Muhammad, peace be with him.
Why would he? He hadn't even been born.

I do believe he said "For the rich person to enter heaven is like the camel passing through the eye of a needle" ..
.. In Aramaic of course ;)
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
Here is an introduction to his community and work in the world. There are more works, I will send you later.

https://www.alislam.org/ahmadiyya-muslim-community/
No I didn't ask for literature. I asked for the words of Jesus in India?
do believe he said "For the rich person to enter heaven is like the camel passing through the eye of a needle" ..
.. In Aramaic of course ;)
He said a lot of stuff in the Gospels. But most Muslims will never know, because they will never read the gospels?
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
@Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi

I recall you did post some words allegedly spoken by Jesus in India, but I can't find them now. It was along the lines of: "My name is Jesus and I was born of a virgin"

Can you remind me please? That alone isn't greatly convincing, imo. Is there anything else Jesus is supposed to have said or actual actions that he did in India?

Please don't post tracts in response ..
 

muhammad_isa

Save Our Souls
Messages
3,271
Reaction score
702
Points
108
Location
Worcester UK
We are experimenting with health care for citizens...but still desire a for profit system where companies can reap billions.

Solutions are few and far between...when we don't see reality working I think it is common to look elsewhere for solace.
Well .. the Queen of the UK has passed away, may God rest her soul.

We all know that we have to die. No money can save us.
It's the beginning of a new era, and somehow I'm still here to witness it. It is touch and go.

It is very frustrating being ill.
I don't think that I have an automatic right to free health care,
but we all have to live in the society that we happen to be in.

Wealth and health are amongst the greatest tests that we face.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wil

Aupmanyav

Search, be your own guru.
Messages
2,206
Reaction score
697
Points
108
Location
New Delhi, India
No I didn't ask for literature. I asked for the words of Jesus in India?
He said a lot of stuff in the Gospels. But most Muslims will never know, because they will never read the gospels?
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Kadiyani returned from heaven. He was the Mahdi, the returning Jesus. To know what he said, you will need to read Ahmadiyya literature.
Mohammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad must have discussed Gospels in Quran and Ahmadi literature.

Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad (13 February 1835 – 26 May 1908)
220px-Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad_%28c._1897%29.jpg
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Kadiyani returned from heaven. He was the Mahdi, the returning Jesus. To know what he said, you will need to read Ahmadiyya literature.
Mohammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad must have discussed Gospels in Quran and Ahmadi literature.

Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad (13 February 1835 – 26 May 1908)
220px-Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad_%28c._1897%29.jpg
I know. But I am asking about Jesus who allegedly survived the cross and is buried in India
 

Aupmanyav

Search, be your own guru.
Messages
2,206
Reaction score
697
Points
108
Location
New Delhi, India
I think for Ahmadiyyas and many others, it is a false story started by Kashmiris for tourism sake and by Buddhists to infiltrate Christianity ("Jesus studied Buddhism in Tibet").

220px-Roza_Bal_Tomb_in_Srinagar_Kashmir.jpg
220px-Roza_Bal_Tomb_in_Srinagar_Kashmir_Interior.jpg
Rosa Bal, Srinagar
 

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
I think for Ahmadiyyas and many others, it is a false story started by Kashmiris for tourism sake and by Buddhists to infiltrate Christianity ("Jesus studied Buddhism in Tibet").
Perhaps, but I am asking for any actual words spoken by Jesus in India, before he allegedly died and was buried there. For example, here (in bold) is a complete list of the words spoken by Jesus in the Quran:


And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. (3:49)

(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. (3:50)

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?” (3:52)

“…and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.”
(5:72)



[And remember] when the disciples said, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven? [Jesus] said," Fear Allah , if you should be believers."


They said, "We wish to eat from it and let our hearts be reassured and know that you have been truthful to us and be among its witnesses."

Said Jesus, the son of Mary, "O Allah , our Lord, send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, and You are the best of providers."

Allah said, "Indeed, I will sent it down to you, but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you - then indeed will I punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds."

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.


I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (5:112-120)


He said, I am God's servant; He has given me the Book, and made me a prophet. He has made me blessed wherever I am, and has enjoined on me the Worship and Alms, so long as I live; and to be dutiful to my mother; and has not made me oppressive, impious. Peace is on me the day I was born, the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised alive. (19:29)


When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: “Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.” (43:63)

https://legacy.quran.com/
 
Last edited:

muhammad_isa

Save Our Souls
Messages
3,271
Reaction score
702
Points
108
Location
Worcester UK
@RJM
Notice in Surat-ul-Imran

3. And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to God and obey me.

A few things here .. notice that "the law" is not cancelled .. as in "new covenant".
For example, it's OK to eat prawns, and the fat on the backs of cattle. :)

Furthermore, some of "the law" was exaggerated or wrongly interpreted etc.
The Sabbath springs to mind .. not cancelled, but not taken to extreme either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
3. And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to God and obey me.
Do you think the version you use is a better translation than this one?
(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. (3:50)
 

Aupmanyav

Search, be your own guru.
Messages
2,206
Reaction score
697
Points
108
Location
New Delhi, India
Perhaps, but I am asking for any actual words spoken by Jesus in India, before he allegedly died and was buried there.
I am not aware of any record of what Hazrat Youza Asouph of Srinagar, Kashmir, may have said. He must have said what is compatible with Islam otherwise his tomb would not have been there. But if Hazrt Youza was Jesus, he came 700 years before Mohammad and some 1,000 years before Islam came to India.
Please note that many sleeping Buddha idols were designated in India as 'Nau Gaza Peer' (i.e., 9 yards, 27 feet long). But from the images what I see is not a 27 feet long grave for Hazrat Youza. It does not seem to be a sleeping Buddha idol.

depositphotos_17887761-stock-photo-sleeping-buddha-statue-at-krabi.jpg

Nau Gaza Peer
unnamed-2.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM

RJM

God Feeds the Ravens
Admin
Messages
9,283
Reaction score
2,194
Points
108
I am not aware of any record of what Hazrat Youza Asouph of Srinagar, Kashmir, may have said. He must have said what is compatible with Islam otherwise his tomb would not have been there. But if Hazrt Youza was Jesus, he came 700 years before Mohammad and some 1,000 years before Islam came to India.
Please note that many sleeping Buddha idols were designated in India as 'Nau Gaza Peer' (i.e., 9 yards, 27 feet long). But from the images what I see is not a 27 feet long grave for Hazrat Youza. It does not seem to be a sleeping Buddha idol.
Thank you.
From wikipedia:

Youza Asaf, Youza Asaph, Youza Asouph, Yuz Asaf, Yuzu Asaf, Yuzu Asif, or Yuzasaf, (Urdu: یوضا آصف) are Arabic and Urdu variations of the name Josaphat, and are primarily connected with Christianized and Islamized versions of the life of the Buddha found in the legend of Barlaam and Josaphat.

According to Ahmadiyya thought, the name Yuz Asaf is of Buddhist derivation, and possibly from Yusu or Yehoshua (Jesus) and Asaf (the Gatherer).


Local Kashmiri traditions state that the Yuz Asaf was a prophet of the ahl-i kitab (People of the Book) whose real name was Isa – the Quranic name for Jesus. The prophet Yuz Asaf came to Kashmir from the West (Holy Land) during the reign of Raja Gopdatta (c 1st century A.D) according to the ancient documents held by the current custodian of the tomb.

According to Tarikh-i-Kashmir, a history of Kashmir written between 1579–1620, Yuzu Asaf was a Prophet of God who travelled to Kashmir from a foreign land.

In 1747, a local Srinagar Sufi writer, Khwaja Muhammad Azam Didamari, stated that the Roza Bal is a shrine to a foreign prophet and prince, Youza Asouph.

Indologist Günter Grönbold in his Jesus in Indien assesses that the shrine was previously Hindu, before the Islamization of Kashmir and is possibly the grave of a Buddhist or Hindu saint rather than a Sufi, but, in any case, has no connection with Jesus or Christianity.


Having stumbled upon research by Russian explorer Nicolas Notovitch, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, identified Yuz Asaf as a name that Jesus of Nazareth may have assumed following his crucifixion and migration from Palestine. Ahmad further identified the Roza Bal shrine located in Srinagar, Kashmir as the tomb of Jesus. Drawing on Kashmiri oral traditions, as well as the Qur'an, Hadith and accounts by explorers, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad postulated that Jesus travelled to Srinagar, where he settled and married a woman called Maryam (Mary), and that Maryam bore Yuza Asif children, before he died aged 120 years. He discusses this belief in the book Jesus in India. More recent Ahmadiyya writers assert that the tomb of Mary, the mother of Jesus is in Murree, Pakistan.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's use of various Hindu and Islamic sources have been deemed to be misunderstandings or distortions by various scholars of Buddhism including the Swedish scholar Per Beskow in Jesus in Kashmir: Historien om en legend (1981), the German indologist Günter Grönbold, in Jesus in Indien - Das Ende einer Legende (1985) and Norbert Klatt, in Lebte Jesus in Indien?: Eine religionsgeschichtliche Klärung (1988). His views are considered heretical by the majority Sunni Islamic scholars, who assert that Jesus is alive in heaven.

Muslims living near the shrine believe Yuz Asaf was a Sufi saint.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuz_Asaf
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Messages
103
Reaction score
6
Points
18
There are some religious books that say that somebody went to heaven but in human history, nobody came back physically. And nobody saw them.
The word “CHRIST” means “The Anointed One.” Enoch was the one anointed by the Most-High in the creation, as his Heir and successor.

Christis is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."

"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up and led me before the Lord’s face.

[Archistratege. Or, "the commander of the armies of the nations, named Michael."]

And the Most-High said to the glorious creatures that surrounded him, tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious creatures bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go [Or be released] according to Thy word." Enoch, was the first to be released.

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory."

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

To translate something is to change it from one form to another. Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not experience death, and he was not found because God had translated him.”

Enoch was the one from the earlier age of Man that was destroyed by water, who was chosen to serve God before the body of Adam into all eternity.
 
Last edited:

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Messages
103
Reaction score
6
Points
18
Hmmm ascended masters?
Forget the plural, "Our ascended ancestral master."

The writings of Enoch were held in great reverence by the early church fathers, including Irenaeus, Origen and Tertullian, and were cherished by the early Christians, up until the fourth century, when, they were banned by dogmatic Roman authorities such as Hilary, Jerome and Augustine, and by the end of the fourth century, they were condemned as being heretical, and they finally passed out of circulation by the middle of the fifth century and were thought lost for millennia. (550 A.D.)

The oldest known Jewish work not included in the canon of Constantine’s universal church, is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, the known COPIES (I REPEAT . . . COPIES) of which were written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE.

The oldest COPIES of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls

Among the Dead Sea Scrolls were a number of manuscripts of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, including ten manuscripts of the Book of Enoch in the original Aramaic (until then copies were extant only in an Ethiopic translation of a Greek translation of a Semitic original), which were vital to answering many questions about its origins. Dating of the manuscripts by their script shows that certain parts of Enoch are at least as old as the third century BCE.

I believe, and will later reveal, that there is ample evidence to support the belief that the original Books of Enoch, the latest COPIES of which were discovered among the Dead Sea scrolls, date back much earlier than the 5th century, and that the originals were taken from Egypt, the land of first born, by Moses.
 
Top