Biblical beliefs....whatever they are.

theMadJW said:
It's even simpler than THAT Thomas: There are No commas in the Koine Greek.
So, Jesus said "I tell you today, you WILL be with me in paradise!" (Like "I'm telling you here and now...")
Click to expand...
Considering that He NEVER anywhere else said verily verily I say unto you today anywhere else in the 25 times spoken in the book of John. You are reaching. You aren't the only one though.

My Lord Jesus is always consistent and never confusing.
 
theMadJW said:
It's even simpler than THAT Thomas: There are No commas in the Koine Greek.
So, Jesus said "I tell you today, you WILL be with me in paradise!" (Like "I'm telling you here and now...")
Click to expand...
I know

So we read: "Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise”

So how we read that is interpretation
 
In the Lucan phrase, the word used is paradise – and it's used only three times in the NT:

One is by Paul is 2 Corinthians 12:2-4:
"I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven (ouranos). And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), That he was caught up into paradise (paradeisos), and heard secret words, which it is not granted to man to utter."

Paul reflects contemporary eschatological speculation of his era.

Sheol was introduced as the place of the departed, where knowledge of and fellowship with God was not possible. As the thought of vindication for the righteous beyond the grave arose, culminating in the hope of personal resurrection, so also Sheol was divided, the righteous waiting for final salvation in a form of paradise. The word paradise (paradeisos) was almost certainly a Persian word taken into both Hebrew and Greek, originally referring to a 'park' or 'garden'. It is used only three times in the Hebrew Scriptures (Song of Solomon 4:13; Nehemiah 2:8 and Ecclesiastes 2:5), but appears 47 times in the Septuagint, notably as a term for the garden of Eden.

In 2 Corinthians, Paul recounts an experience in which he was caught up to the third heaven, to paradise.

Paradise then in a 'garden' an intermediate state, a resting in God's presence. Revelation 2:7 says: "He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him, that overcometh, I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of my God." Clearly a reference to the Garden of Eden.

So we have a hierarchy of eschatalogical states, and Paradise is one, a third heaven, where heaven as such is the totality.

The 'harrowing of hell' is where Jesus takes the souls of the righteous to paradise, and there the souls of the departed faithful dwell, until the Final Judgement.

+++

The fact that the robber will be there 'today' means Christ has forgiven him, 'here and now'.
 
Thomas said:
The fact that the robber will be there 'today' means Christ has forgiven him, 'here and now'.
Click to expand...
Jesus said "Why do you call me good? Only God is good!"
The only One who can forgive us is God .. when it comes to entering paradise.
..but as God is not a person, God's forgiveness is more about the state of our souls, rather than an external decision.

..just trying to explain how I understand the reality .. the truth.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Jesus said "Why do you call me good? Only God is good!"
Click to expand...
Have you thought about Jesus saying that as Him proclaiming He is God by asking the man why He is being called good. Read the whole chapter in context.

The logic can be summarized as follows:
1: Jesus claims only God is good.
2: Jesus claims to be good.
3: Therefore, Jesus claims to be God.

Of course you won't though because it won't fit your narrative.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Jesus said "Why do you call me good? Only God is good!"
The only One who can forgive us is God .. when it comes to entering paradise.
..but as God is not a person, God's forgiveness is more about the state of our souls, rather than an external decision.

..just trying to explain how I understand the reality .. the truth.
Click to expand...
According to the gospels Jesus forgave sin, so is the problem with the gospel accounts?
 
Faithfulservant said:
Have you thought about Jesus saying that as Him proclaiming He is God by asking the man why He is being called good. Read the whole chapter in context.

The logic can be summarized as follows:
1: Jesus claims only God is good.
2: Jesus claims to be good.
3: Therefore, Jesus claims to be God.
Click to expand...
I don't think Jesus boasted about how "good" he is .. on the contrary..
I'm vary wary of people who claim they are whiter than white .. aren't you? :)
 
muhammad_isa said:
I don't think Jesus boasted about how "good" he is .. on the contrary..
I'm vary wary of people who claim they are whiter than white .. aren't you? :)
Click to expand...
Today is the feast of the Transfiguration.
Nobody has to believe it, but it's what gospels say:

About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendour, talking with Jesus … a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my beloved Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone.
Luke 9:28-36
muhammad_isa said:
..depends on the context..
Click to expand...
Here is the context:

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?

But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all.
Mark 2:5-12

Nobody has to believe what the gospels say, but it is what they say?
Do you reject those passages as corrupted?
 
Last edited:
muhammad_isa said:
I don't think Jesus boasted about how "good" he is .. on the contrary..
I'm vary wary of people who claim they are whiter than white .. aren't you? :)
Click to expand...
See.. you are going to find any excuse for it to fit your narrative. I understand though because if I am right then everything you believe is a lie. It goes both ways because if you are right then everything I believe would be a lie.
 
Thomas said:
I know

So we read: "Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise”

So how we read that is interpretation
Click to expand...

Your'e playing words games.
But, after all, you saymeans that NO ONE ever dies- we just switch bodies.

CONTRARY to what God and Jesus have said.

True Christians do not fall for that church dogma.
 
theMadJW said:
True Christians do not fall for that church dogma.
Click to expand...
Here is where you sit in judgment. You have set yourself up as judge, jury...and if you had your way, executioner. Ask me how I know...




The Master of my Fate – Interfaith

www.interfaith.org www.interfaith.org



The sad part is there are elements of your faith I think would be cool to discuss...but as long as your language is accusative, it is very difficult to reach out to you. I'm not trying to redirect you, and I guarantee you won't redirect me. You can try, but you better pack a lunch, 'cause it's gonna be a long, long day. If you can't meet me as your neighbor, then why should I bother? Accusing me and ranting at me is not going to convince me. It isn't going to convince anybody.

And I still come back to, what do you, personally, MadJW, DO with your religion? What does your religion teach you to DO?

Every major world faith I looked at years ago here, every single one I looked at, has at its core a message essentially identical to the Golden Rule. Do Unto Others As You Wish Done Unto You. It ain't rocket science. It is, in common parlance, Phileo..."brotherly love." What does your faith teach you to DO?

I seriously don't think G!d is going to be fussing over what t's were crossed and what i's dotted, when we stand at the Great White Throne Judgment, He is going to ask "What have you done for these my children?" And we are ALL His children. We are ALL His creation.

You want a linguistic exercise, Mad? Look up the word "love" in the New Testament Greek. Let's talk about that, shall we?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top