Sapere aude

I think you missed the point of my response.

In denying God, you first have to have in mind some idea of what it is you're denying.

Here's the nub – the God that you're denying is not the God I believe in. You labour under the illusion that God must conform to your rationale, so you can deny God – which seems irrational to me.

From the standpoint of theology, your critique of a belief in God was put to rest long, long ago.
 
muhammad_isa said:
No way! Influenced by the past.


Oh, so that's it? We've all got "different brains" ?

I think you'll find that one brain looks much like another. :)
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Looks like, but doesn't think like the other. It starts with the brain, then there's your fetal environment (how did your Mother's behavior affect your brain development), how were you cared for as a child, etc.

There is a cause for everything...you make a choice based on prior causes that you had no control over.
 
Thomas said:
I think you missed the point of my response.

In denying God, you first have to have in mind some idea of what it is you're denying.

Here's the nub – the God that you're denying is not the God I believe in. You labour under the illusion that God must conform to your rationale, so you can deny God – which seems irrational to me.

From the standpoint of theology, your critique of a belief in God was put to rest long, long ago.
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Well that's convenient isn't it?

Everyone uses the same word, "God", but it is whatever each individual chooses it to be. So there are millions of versions of God, without evidence of a single one. And ironically, a person may deny all the millions of versions of God except his version.

The version I'm using is the most common rendering, an invisible theistic god, as described by the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions.

But I'm happy to go with Zeus, Baal, Oden, or a very personalized, customized God.
 
Thomas said:
Something I learned doing my degree BA (Hons) Divinity.

The assumption that a religious belief is irrational is, itself, irrational – unless you can disprove God?
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No one needs to 'disprove' god, you can't prove a negative. Therefore those who insist there is a god need to prove there is one. To insist on something existing without any proof is the epitome of irrationality.
 
Naturalist said:
Hello Fellow Homo sapiens:

Homo sapiens means wise humans. Let's work at it!

I come from a Jewish background, and as a pre-teen could not understand how adults could believe in the Old Testament. It was obviously mythology.

These childhood observations led me to become interested in a number of related areas, like other religions, psychology, physics, etc. I wanted to know what the evidence showed, and why people willfully ignored the evidence.

While pursuing my professional career in the nuclear power industry, I didn't have much time to pursue these interests, but now that I'm retired, I'm good to go.

When communicating on the Internet, I unfortunately find that in discussing these issues, many religious people feel they are being "attacked". Criticism is not "attacking". I welcome criticism, and "attacks". Tell me why you think I'm wrong, and if your evidence or logic is sound, I will have learned something.

Thank you in advance.
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I'm not entirely clear as to what your question is but I think you are implying that the Old Testament is mythology.
When individuals deeply invested in their religious beliefs face challenges to their faith, some may react defensively, possibly due to a lack of firm conviction. Others may struggle to articulate their perspectives, while some rigidly cling to their blind faith, resistant to any questioning, as if challenging their foundational beliefs unsettles their entire worldview. From the perspective of the Western Left Hand Path, I posit that external deities are nonexistent; the only 'god' one can truly comprehend is the God Within.

That said; The Greater Self, or GodSelf, is conscious energy evolving and growing through the experiences of its creations. The physical body provides a vehicle in which the psyche can become aware of itself and then reach out towards the limitlessness of its conscious existence. Our Greater Self/Self/Psyche/Consciousness/Soul exists separate from objective reality, it remains as it was after our physical demise. This is our Singularity, our GodSelf.

Human beings emerge through the process of Evolution and Natural Selection, guided by an Intelligent Designer, be it the Soul, Psyche, Isolate Consciousness, Greater Self, or GodSelf, rather than an external deity. According to this perspective, human consciousness is not destined to evolve unconsciously, as dictated by the natural order. Instead, it is believed that the evolution of human consciousness can only occur consciously, following the inherent processes of its own nature.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
I'm not entirely clear as to what your question is but I think you are implying that the Old Testament is mythology.
When individuals deeply invested in their religious beliefs face challenges to their faith, some may react defensively, possibly due to a lack of firm conviction. Others may struggle to articulate their perspectives, while some rigidly cling to their blind faith, resistant to any questioning, as if challenging their foundational beliefs unsettles their entire worldview. From the perspective of the Western Left Hand Path, I posit that external deities are nonexistent; the only 'god' one can truly comprehend is the God Within.

That said; The Greater Self, or GodSelf, is conscious energy evolving and growing through the experiences of its creations. The physical body provides a vehicle in which the psyche can become aware of itself and then reach out towards the limitlessness of its conscious existence. Our Greater Self/Self/Psyche/Consciousness/Soul exists separate from objective reality, it remains as it was after our physical demise. This is our Singularity, our GodSelf.

Human beings emerge through the process of Evolution and Natural Selection, guided by an Intelligent Designer, be it the Soul, Psyche, Isolate Consciousness, Greater Self, or GodSelf, rather than an external deity. According to this perspective, human consciousness is not destined to evolve unconsciously, as dictated by the natural order. Instead, it is believed that the evolution of human consciousness can only occur consciously, following the inherent processes of its own nature.
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There was no question, just an introduction. The Old Testament is mythology, and I think if its authors could be transported to today, and they find modern humans taking that stuff seriously, they'd be shocked.

I'm not into an Intelligent Designer.....
 
Naturalist said:
You raise some interesting points.

Exodus 21:20-21,
"And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

Ezekiel 18:13, "He lends at interest and takes a profit. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head."

Clearly slavery is fine (but coveting your neighbors things is forbidden!).

Clearly you shouldn't be paying interest, because the person who charged you should be dead.

Morality today is much better than in the past. Women have rights, there are no more slaves, there is not a World War, there is freedom of religion ((most democracies), etc.
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Yeah.. you don't get to do that.. tell me that my Bible is myth and fallacy and then use it to prove your argument against me?

The law neither instituted slavery nor ended it; rather, the law regulated it. It gave instructions on how slaves should be treated but did not outlaw slavery altogether.

God knew that there would be slavery He instituted laws to protect people. He dealt with Hebrews having Hebrew slaves, Gentiles having Hebrew slaves and Hebrews having Gentile slaves.

As far as coveting another things.. look what springs from that? Jealousy hate and even thievery and murder.

Paying interest? Not sure what you mean.. I have interest I pay on my mortgage and car loan and any credit card I have.

You must not watch the news if you think morality is better today.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Yeah.. you don't get to do that.. tell me that my Bible is myth and fallacy and then use it to prove your argument against me?

The law neither instituted slavery nor ended it; rather, the law regulated it. It gave instructions on how slaves should be treated but did not outlaw slavery altogether.

God knew that there would be slavery He instituted laws to protect people. He dealt with Hebrews having Hebrew slaves, Gentiles having Hebrew slaves and Hebrews having Gentile slaves.

As far as coveting another things.. look what springs from that? Jealousy hate and even thievery and murder.

Paying interest? Not sure what you mean.. I have interest I pay on my mortgage and car loan and any credit card I have.

You must not watch the news if you think morality is better today.
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Why would an omnipotent, omniscient god enable slavery and then 'regulate' it?
 
Thomas said:
I do understand that it seems everyone is piling in on you here ...
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Hazing the newbies 🥰
it's been a bit dry around here lately!! Anyone that comes in and claims absolutes gets the same treatment. I know I did! I have a feeling that he can withstand it . I've yet to see a personal insult or emotional freak out and we've had quite a few of those lately.
 
Naturalist said:
The version I'm using is the most common rendering, an invisible theistic god, as described by the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions..
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No .. your version of G-d is the one you prefer .. the interpretation
that suits your agenda.

See .. you are no different to believers, in that regard. :)
 
Faithfulservant said:
Yeah.. you don't get to do that.. tell me that my Bible is myth and fallacy and then use it to prove your argument against me?

The law neither instituted slavery nor ended it; rather, the law regulated it. It gave instructions on how slaves should be treated but did not outlaw slavery altogether.

God knew that there would be slavery He instituted laws to protect people. He dealt with Hebrews having Hebrew slaves, Gentiles having Hebrew slaves and Hebrews having Gentile slaves.

As far as coveting another things.. look what springs from that? Jealousy hate and even thievery and murder.

Paying interest? Not sure what you mean.. I have interest I pay on my mortgage and car loan and any credit card I have.

You must not watch the news if you think morality is better today.
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Myths can be full of hypocrisies.

My morality is that coveting a neighbor's things (so important to be one of the 10 Commandments) is not nearly as bad as NOT outlawing slavery. I would outlaw slavery before outlawing working on the Sabbath. (Why does a god need to rest anyway?)

Interest - I provided a verse that says that those who collect interest will die. That doesn't happen. Shocking.

Every journalist knows that bad news sells better than good news. You weren't around to watch the news 100 years ago, because there was no news to watch. You have to go with academic studies.

Here is someone who studies the issue academically, not by watching TV: https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_is_the_world_getting_better_or_worse_a_look_at_the_numbers
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
What are you 'into'?
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You may (or maybe not) know about Intelligent Design offered as an alternative to evolution by natural selection. A group of religious people wanted Creationism to be taught in public school in science class (in the U.S.). That was ruled to be illegal (violation of church and state).

Those people morphed Creationism into Creation Science, to make it seem like legitimate science, not religion. That was also ruled illegal.

Finally, they changed Creation Science to Intelligent Design. That was ruled illegal.

There are still people promoting Intelligent Design (ID) and they're often called IDiots.
 
Naturalist said:
You may (or maybe not) know about Intelligent Design offered as an alternative to evolution by natural selection. A group of religious people wanted Creationism to be taught in public school in science class (in the U.S.). That was ruled to be illegal (violation of church and state).

Those people morphed Creationism into Creation Science, to make it seem like legitimate science, not religion. That was also ruled illegal.

Finally, they changed Creation Science to Intelligent Design. That was ruled illegal.

There are still people promoting Intelligent Design (ID) and they're often called IDiots.
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I don't think you fully understand my position.
This Intelligent Designer is Within, it is not an external god, it is the god within. It is the Soul of each of us that enables our progress along with natural selection.

I did provide the philosophy behind this . . .
 
muhammad_isa said:
There's no such thing.
I presume you mean "a literal reading of an English translation of the Bible".

That is not "the most common", as far as the majority of believers are concerned.
Here is a breakdown of global pop..

Christianity (31.1%)
Islam (24.9%)
Irreligion (15.6%)
Hinduism (15.2%)
Buddhism (6.6%)
Folk religions (5.6%)
Other religions (1%)
- Wikipedia -
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Maybe you should work on your arithmetic. The people who follow the scriptures, based on your numbers are (31.1+24.9) = 56%.

That's the most common.
 
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