Gifts of the Spirit

[Quahom1]

Ah, sorry Q. I guess I got confused on terminology. But I appreciate the definitions.

I should also point out that some people have both, the natural (empathic), and Spiritual (discernment), rolled into one. Can you think of historical figures who might fit this profile?

Right off the bat, Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II come to mind...as does Father Martin Luther and Martin Luther King jr...

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Which is why I said I don't put too much stock in tongues, I look for changes in my life to confirm my relationship to God. And my relationship to God is not something that I can prove to you nor anyone else, it just is. My own confirmation of God comes from the fact that my life has changed for the better as I've learned to trust in Something I cannot prove objectively. Knowing the Divine is a purely subjective experience based on faith. It's knowing a sense of Love I've never experienced before, and finding an ability to love as a result. If God doesn't exist, then I've lost nothing by believing, rather I've gained more than I'd hoped for, for I've learned to love. The testamony of a changed life, therefore is all I have to offer.

Which is in and of itself a divine advance of man towards greater understanding of life. To seek what is best for best's sake, as opposed to self for self's sake. Blessed are those who have not seen, but believe...

v/r

Q

 

[path_of_one]

Empathy n. is one's ability to recognize and understand the emotion of another. Empathy is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes", or experiencing the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself, a sort of emotional resonance.

Empath n.

A person who can psychically tune in to the emotional experience of a person, place or animal.
site.lunamyst.com/filelocker/glossary.html
[SIZE=-1]A person who is physically sensitive to the energy around them. It is believed that these people are able to literally feel the energy surrounding them causing physical ailments. Depending on the type of energy an Empath or Sensitive can tell what the intentions of the spirit is
www.geocities.com/longislandparanormalsociety/Definitions_Psychics.html[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Empathy is the recognition and understanding of the states of mind, including beliefs, desires and particularly emotions of others. This concept is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes". However, this metaphor is ambiguous concerning whether one imagines actually "being" the other person, with all their beliefs and character traits, or simply being in their situation (such as being the prime minister). ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empath

Thanks for pulling these definitions together, Q. Very interesting. I'd have to say that for me, empathy is not just being in a similar situation. In fact, I don't have to have ever experienced a similar situation at all to sense another's desires, thoughts, emotions.

It is definitely more a feeling of "being" the other person somehow. This is why it can be incredibly stressful on my own psyche and even body. When someone is depressed, angry, sick, etc. I feel that. It is very easy for me to take on even the subtle things people do- how they speak, move, how their logic works. And yes, I get this stuff from animals and places as well as people. I can get very overwhelmed if there is enough negative stuff going on at once or if I am in close contact with someone who is very unstable mentally. I've been working on learning how to turn it off, to tune it down.

Discernment

n.

Discernment is a process of prayerful reflection which leads a person or community to understanding of God's call at a given time or in particular circumstances of life. It involves listening to God in all the ways God communicates with us: in prayer, in the scriptures, through the Church and the world, in personal experience, and in other people.
www.vocations.ca/What_is_a_vocation/common_terms.php
[SIZE=-1]is the heightened ability to read or hear a teaching, to encounter a problem, or to consider a proposed course of action, and then determine whether the source behind the teaching, problem, or action is divine, merely human, or satanic. This will be a much needed gift near the End of the Age. [Bible Study on Discernment.]
[URL="http://www.acts17-11.com/dictionary_gifts.html"]www.acts17-11.com/dictionary_gifts.html[/URL]

These definitions make sense to me. Though the first definition sounds more like Christian mysticism to me, more of a total spiritual path than a specific gift. The second definition sounds more like spiritual discernment.
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]

(Fr. Prediliction) - is the twelfth sense which enables you to avoid all things antipathetic and to encounter everything sympathetic. This sense results in the evolution of Intuition.
[URL="http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theon/glossary.html"]www.kheper.net/topics/Theon/glossary.html[/URL]

I have to say I don't understand this definition. I guess I should look at the website. What are the first eleven senses? And I guess they're meaning that in discernment you can then avoid everything bad/evil and choose only the things that are good? I would argue that spiritual discernment does not involve into intuition, but rather the other way 'round, with a good dose of the grace of God. That is, all humans have intuition. This can be developed or ignored. Not everyone has spiritual discernment. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]

A spiritual gift through which one discerns the inner states. It is not a sharpness of mind but the energy of the grace of God. It is a gift which pertains to the pure nous. It is mainly the ability to distinguish between uncreated and created things; between the energy of God and the energy of the devil but also between the energies of God and the psychophysical energies of man. Thus, one distinguishes emotional states from spiritual experiences.
www.pelagia.org/htm/b01.en.a_night_in_the_desert_of_the_holy_mountain.09.htm

This makes a lot of sense. Though I'm not sure about the difference between uncreated and created things. As far as I'm concerned, it's all created except for God. Some entities are a whole heck of a lot older and other-worldly than others, but they had a beginning too. As far as I believe, only God exists entirely outside space and time, without beginning or end.

In short, one is natural to man's senses, only highly developed. The other is "gifted" to one who otherwise does not have the natural abibity developed.

Many "empaths" use their talent for reasons other than helping others, only that does not diminish their abilities, but it doesn't mean they are God guided either.

The other, being a "God's gift" is to be used to help others, and if abused, can literally dis-appear in an instant.

Honestly, I can't even imagine how spiritual discernment can be abused, but maybe that's just me. I've never been able to imagine how one could use it to their own benefit, save protection of oneself. I guess someone could use it to connect with those who are dangerous and acting against God (what some would call satanic)...

Empathy is rather useful and can be used to one's own end. This is part of my constant struggle. Like any other gift, like being a good musician or artist, or intellectually gifted, it has the potential to be used to benefit the self. I guess the question is if an action benefits the self at the expense of others or God's will. This speaks to the ambiguity I have about these sorts of gifts and the power one can have from them. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[path_of_one]

It's knowing a sense of Love I've never experienced before, and finding an ability to love as a result. If God doesn't exist, then I've lost nothing by believing, rather I've gained more than I'd hoped for, for I've learned to love. The testamony of a changed life, therefore is all I have to offer.

Thanks for this, Dondi. This is exactly my feeling as well. The journey is one of learning to transcend our self-centeredness and learning to love- completely and passionately. To die to the self, to pour out oneself, that Christ may be born in us. If in no other way, God is real because He exists in this process of transformation.

 

[Quahom1]

Thanks for pulling these definitions together, Q. Very interesting. I'd have to say that for me, empathy is not just being in a similar situation. In fact, I don't have to have ever experienced a similar situation at all to sense another's desires, thoughts, emotions.

It is definitely more a feeling of "being" the other person somehow. This is why it can be incredibly stressful on my own psyche and even body. When someone is depressed, angry, sick, etc. I feel that. It is very easy for me to take on even the subtle things people do- how they speak, move, how their logic works. And yes, I get this stuff from animals and places as well as people. I can get very overwhelmed if there is enough negative stuff going on at once or if I am in close contact with someone who is very unstable mentally. I've been working on learning how to turn it off, to tune it down.



These definitions make sense to me. Though the first definition sounds more like Christian mysticism to me, more of a total spiritual path than a specific gift. The second definition sounds more like spiritual discernment.
[/size]
[SIZE=-1]

I have to say I don't understand this definition. I guess I should look at the website. What are the first eleven senses? And I guess they're meaning that in discernment you can then avoid everything bad/evil and choose only the things that are good? I would argue that spiritual discernment does not involve into intuition, but rather the other way 'round, with a good dose of the grace of God. That is, all humans have intuition. This can be developed or ignored. Not everyone has spiritual discernment. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]

This makes a lot of sense. Though I'm not sure about the difference between uncreated and created things. As far as I'm concerned, it's all created except for God. Some entities are a whole heck of a lot older and other-worldly than others, but they had a beginning too. As far as I believe, only God exists entirely outside space and time, without beginning or end.



Honestly, I can't even imagine how spiritual discernment can be abused, but maybe that's just me. I've never been able to imagine how one could use it to their own benefit, save protection of oneself. I guess someone could use it to connect with those who are dangerous and acting against God (what some would call satanic)...

Empathy is rather useful and can be used to one's own end. This is part of my constant struggle. Like any other gift, like being a good musician or artist, or intellectually gifted, it has the potential to be used to benefit the self. I guess the question is if an action benefits the self at the expense of others or God's will. This speaks to the ambiguity I have about these sorts of gifts and the power one can have from them. [/SIZE][/size]

Empathy, like any other talent man has, can be abused, and can get one into serious trouble. Many "schizophrenics" have empathic ablilities. But somewhere along the way, they were not taught to turn it off, or control it...and instead it controls them. (I'm using this as an extreme case).

Others that come to mind are the "fortune tellers", who can't read anything but the person's state of mind, but are quick enough to put two and two together to get a "reading" for the person (and $50.00 from their pocket).

The third type is the one who gets charged and/or drained by others, depending on the company they keep. Most empathics like this are (believe it or not), Pisces (that is born during a certain time of the year under that cellestial sign). In today's terms they are called Phlegmatic or melancholic personalities. If they of one side of the coin (in extremes) they can be overwhelmed (end up brilliant minds in the gutter), and if they are of the other side of the coin (again in extremis), they are considered hard asses, cold, with no feelings at all (which is not true).

Then there are the "sage/sage adepts/apprentices". They have the will and strength of mind to handle the "talent" they are born with. They can control the effects, impulses, and onslaughts of emotional rage from others onto themselves with little damage. They control their own urges and desires. They seek counsel from their "God" to use what they have wisely, and to be guided in its use. And they hold themselves accountable for their own actions (whether or not others perceive those actions).

The Gift of discernment, however is a different matter. It is like life, in that it can be given, and be taken away in an instant. It is not natural, but rather supernatural. There are certain expectations that the "God" has of the recipient of that particular gift. Else, God would not have given that gift to begin with. It is not an advantage (like empathy could be), but rather a burden, or accountable (in specific fashion). Unlike Empathy which can be "invested" in (or strengthened), discernment is given to the recipient "fully developed". That is all you get, and it is enough for God's intention.

Where empathy waxes and wanes, discernment is fixed. You have it or you don't. And unlike empathy, discernment is not something anyone who has, wishes to have more of. That desire is not there. Discernment is a "gift" that has "strings attached". Cut the strings, and lose the gift...

my thoughts so far

v/r

Q

 

[Dondi]

So I suppose I would completely agree that feelings of ecstasy can be brought about by non-spiritual things as well. This is most obvious for people who trance through drugs without appropriate shamanic spiritual guidance. I've never done any sort of drugs myself (in fact, I'm scared by them- the last thing I need is to open up the gateways more! LOL!), but I've talked to plenty of anthropologists who have tried this or that. Many are atheists and still had amazing, mind-opening experiences, a sense of connectedness with everything, joy, love, etc. I think it is a product not of spirituality necessarily, but rather of altering the consciousness, of pushing it outside its normal waking state.

It was LSD that opened the door for George Harrison to explore Indian mysticism. Here's a quote:

"After having... so much success in The Beatles and realizing that this wasn't the answer to everything, the question came... What's it all about? And then, purely because of the force-fed LSD experience, I had the realization of God... [After] I had read enough from the Vivekenandas and Yoganandas to comprehend how to see God: by using the Yogic system of transcending through relative states of consciousness (waking, sleeping, dreaming) to get the most subtle level of pure consciousness. It is in that level that the individual experiences pure awareness, pure consciousness, the source of all being. We said it in Tomarrow Never Knows"


But then:

"If we'd met the Maharishi before we had taken LSD we wouldn't have needed to take it." - John Lennon

Now I'm not advocating anyone taking drugs, as though drugs are an artificial means of obtaining this type of experience. But it is my belief that the mind is the window of the soul and that which we sense in our bodies are extentions of the mind. And by inducing drugs into the brain you change the chemicals process of the mind to such that the mind will respond in a different, though unatural way. If one believes in the soul, then the physical body under drugs distorts how that soul is housed. It would be like denting a metal water container, like a canteen. The water doesn't change, even though the container is distorted.

 

[Quahom1]

It was LSD that opened the door for George Harrison to explore Indian mysticism. Here's a quote:

"After having... so much success in The Beatles and realizing that this wasn't the answer to everything, the question came... What's it all about? And then, purely because of the force-fed LSD experience, I had the realization of God... [After] I had read enough from the Vivekenandas and Yoganandas to comprehend how to see God: by using the Yogic system of transcending through relative states of consciousness (waking, sleeping, dreaming) to get the most subtle level of pure consciousness. It is in that level that the individual experiences pure awareness, pure consciousness, the source of all being. We said it in Tomarrow Never Knows"


But then:

"If we'd met the Maharishi before we had taken LSD we wouldn't have needed to take it." - John Lennon

Now I'm not advocating anyone taking drugs, as though drugs are an artificial means of obtaining this type of experience. But it is my belief that the mind is the window of the soul and that which we sense in our bodies are extentions of the mind. And by inducing drugs into the brain you change the chemicals process of the mind to such that the mind will respond in a different, though unatural way. If one believes in the soul, then the physical body under drugs distorts how that soul is housed. It would be like denting a metal water container, like a canteen. The water doesn't change, even though the container is distorted.

Ok, but what does this have to do with Christian thought?

v/r

Q

 

[Dondi]

Ok, but what does this have to do with Christian thought?

v/r

Q

Well, we were getting into RubySera_Martin's point that tongues is not exclusively found in Christian circles. And then path_of_one pointed out that other religions, like the shamanic practices, uses drugs to enhance the ability to experience this estacy. I followed this with the example of george Harrrison's experience with LSD and subsequent interest in Indian mysticism.

My point is that the ability to sense God in this manner is not a purely Christian ability. And that would be troubling to know in Christian circles, unless one recognizes that we are all made of the same stuff. If God is reachable, then it is within the human soul. Paul points out in Acts 17:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:24-28


If God is everywhere, then it is possible that He may be known in each individual. He may not be a far from us as we imagine. The difference is what kind of means are we trying to access Him? On the otherhand, we may be opening the doors for unwanted visitors as well.

 

[Quahom1]

Well, we were getting into RubySera_Martin's point that tongues is not exclusively found in Christian circles. And then path_of_one pointed out that other religions, like the shamanic practices, uses drugs to enhance the ability to experience this estacy. I followed this with the example of george Harrrison's experience with LSD and subsequent interest in Indian mysticism.

My point is that the ability to sense God in this manner is not a purely Christian ability. And that would be troubling to know in Christian circles, unless one recognizes that we are all made of the same stuff. If God is reachable, then it is within the human soul. Paul points out in Acts 17:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:24-28


If God is everywhere, then it is possible that He may be known in each individual. He may not be a far from us as we imagine. The difference is what kind of means are we trying to access Him? On the otherhand, we may be opening the doors for unwanted visitors as well.

Good point, however you can see that I am deliberately bringing us back to Christian thought on these issues. I think that is where we should concentrate our efforts.

v/r

Q

 

[Dondi]

Good point, however you can see that I am deliberately bringing us back to Christian thought on these issues. I think that is where we should concentrate our efforts.

v/r

Q

Yes, of course. It's easy to veer on a tangent on a topic like this..

But allow me one more point.

path_of_one,

I ran into an older thread of a similiar vein:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/christianity/gifts-of-the-spirit-magic-esp-and-all-that-2581.html


The thing that interested me in this discussion is ESP. One post by truthseeker said that ESP has scientific meaning. I disagree.

At one time in my life, I had strayed far from the God of my youth. And my downward spiral of partying and drinking as so forth led me to a miserable state. But still not acknowledging God, who by that time I had doubts of existing at all (maybe because I didn't want to acknowledge my lifestyle), I started exploring ways to improve my life, do something with it.

So I ended up getting a book on ESP, figuring that if I had some kind of ability, i could better my life somehow. The book basically started with getting into a meditative, relaxed state and concentrate on certain areas of my body (seven chankas) as exercises. Well, this was all well and good, and I was brimming with anticipation with learning ESP.

But then the author got into the possibility of hearing from "spiritual guides". HUH? i skimmed through the rest of the book and found that the author relied on these "spiritual guides" to obtain ESP information. So it was bascally telling me that ESP isn't anything innate with our ability to read minds and so forth, that all of this came down to channelling.

Now, you have to understand that at that point I was having doubts about God and anything having to do with the spiritual. So red flags went up glaringly. Something sinister was going on with ESP. In my estimation, if these "spiritual guides" are real to this author, then everything else spiritual was real, including God.

Shortly after this, I tossed the ESP book away and humbly turned to the Lord, though I had no idea to what extent He would accept me back. I felt He was a million miles away. But, oh, the flood of Love and the wieght of my soul being lifted in coming to God was so tremendous, I never felt anything like it. If you truly know the Love of God, then you know what i'm talki ng about.

 

[path_of_one]

The third type is the one who gets charged and/or drained by others, depending on the company they keep. Most empathics like this are (believe it or not), Pisces (that is born during a certain time of the year under that cellestial sign). In today's terms they are called Phlegmatic or melancholic personalities. If they of one side of the coin (in extremes) they can be overwhelmed (end up brilliant minds in the gutter), and if they are of the other side of the coin (again in extremis), they are considered hard asses, cold, with no feelings at all (which is not true).

I'm not a Pisces, but this definitely happens to me. This is why I've sought to more consciously practice empathy, to be more self-aware of what is going on and get better at controlling it. Otherwise, it controls me. Some people are black holes of energy- they just suck energy out of places and people. Others are so hyper that they hype up everyone around them. Some crowds give off so much positive or neutral energy that it's like riding a tidal wave in a way- it's very euphoric. Other crowds give off so much negative energy that it's scary. Places do similar things- some places give off a tremendous amount of energy. I don't think there's much supernatural about any of it. It's just energy, thought, and emotion that I'm responding to. I do think everyone does this, but most aren't as sensitive to it. This is why you get mob mentality and why people love getting together in huge groups to cheer on sports teams, listen to music, and even have religious ritual. There is energetic power in masses of people.

I've had to work to have more control over my empathy rather than the other way 'round. I'm very prone to becoming overwhelmed, depressed, exhausted depending on where I go and the company I keep. Some of this is taking on the energy of others, and some of it is from trying to heal hurts, and some of it is the sheer frustration of sensing things I can do nothing about. When you sense a perfect stranger is suicidal, what do you do? You don't know this person, they are not in immediate danger... what do you do? I've had students with terminal illnesses and felt their life energy waning as they neared death, with nothing I could contribute except prayer. It can be tremendously upsetting to feel all the pain and anger and fractured states of others with little capacity to heal them. The best I can do is sometimes healing a little, but it's often temporary, dependent on me being there. Ah, this is getting into a realm that's a little too personal and makes me sound like I'm nuts. The scientist in me struggles with the mystic at times, I guess.

Then there are the "sage/sage adepts/apprentices". They have the will and strength of mind to handle the "talent" they are born with. They can control the effects, impulses, and onslaughts of emotional rage from others onto themselves with little damage. They control their own urges and desires. They seek counsel from their "God" to use what they have wisely, and to be guided in its use. And they hold themselves accountable for their own actions (whether or not others perceive those actions).

This is the journey I'm trying to take. I've never had a problem holding myself accountable, though like in every area of life, I've misused empathy at times just as I've sinned in other areas of my life. No one is 100% perfect at controlling their own desires and urges, and that includes me. And just like all of ethics, one has to seek God and ask for the boundaries and standards. My biggest difficulty has been to learn how to avoid damage to myself, to find the line between exercising the gift enough to control it and be self-aware of its implications for my own mental and physical health, and yet not get too curious about my limitations for its own sake. I'm very intellectually curious, and I can't help but want to know what I could do- not for gain, but just for the sake of knowing. How much of reality is pliable, malleable? How much of the bigger picture can I see? A lot of this is driven my desire to help others- I wish I could heal them as well as I can see what's wrong. But I admit that some of this is driven by my own curiousity- what is the power of a single soul in this universe? What are the connections that are woven between us and how deep can they run?

Wow, I'm in a pensive mood today. I should go write.

The Gift of discernment, however is a different matter. It is like life, in that it can be given, and be taken away in an instant. It is not natural, but rather supernatural. There are certain expectations that the "God" has of the recipient of that particular gift. Else, God would not have given that gift to begin with. It is not an advantage (like empathy could be), but rather a burden, or accountable (in specific fashion). Unlike Empathy which can be "invested" in (or strengthened), discernment is given to the recipient "fully developed". That is all you get, and it is enough for God's intention.

Where empathy waxes and wanes, discernment is fixed. You have it or you don't. And unlike empathy, discernment is not something anyone who has, wishes to have more of. That desire is not there. Discernment is a "gift" that has "strings attached". Cut the strings, and lose the gift...

Yes. Unlike my desire to experiment with empathy and telepathy, I've never wanted any more discernment than I have. In fact, I feel it a real burden. Other than self-protection, I don't know what to do with it. Maybe this will be revealed to me as time goes on.

I'm not that brave like you are, Q. Ordinary human problems and emotions are bad enough sometimes, and the stuff I sometimes get in terms of spiritual states can be downright frightening. Druidry has helped me be a bit less frightened, because it tackles issues of energies and spirits more directly. But honestly, I've experienced some stuff that is scary to me, and all I can do is call on God for His protection and have faith that He will, indeed, protect me. Who knows, maybe that is the point, to keep me running to God. I've always sought after God, but perhaps one day I'll be strong enough in my own faith and spirituality to not ever be fearful... without too many details, I do think this a good deal of the work I'm supposed to do with my own soul in this life, and a reason I am who I am, with the gifts I have.

 

[Quahom1]

Yes, of course. It's easy to veer on a tangent on a topic like this..

But allow me one more point.

path_of_one,

I ran into an older thread of a similiar vein:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/christianity/gifts-of-the-spirit-magic-esp-and-all-that-2581.html


The thing that interested me in this discussion is ESP. One post by truthseeker said that ESP has scientific meaning. I disagree.

At one time in my life, I had strayed far from the God of my youth. And my downward spiral of partying and drinking as so forth led me to a miserable state. But still not acknowledging God, who by that time I had doubts of existing at all (maybe because I didn't want to acknowledge my lifestyle), I started exploring ways to improve my life, do something with it.

So I ended up getting a book on ESP, figuring that if I had some kind of ability, i could better my life somehow. The book basically started with getting into a meditative, relaxed state and concentrate on certain areas of my body (seven chankas) as exercises. Well, this was all well and good, and I was brimming with anticipation with learning ESP.

But then the author got into the possibility of hearing from "spiritual guides". HUH? i skimmed through the rest of the book and found that the author relied on these "spiritual guides" to obtain ESP information. So it was bascally telling me that ESP isn't anything innate with our ability to read minds and so forth, that all of this came down to channelling.

Now, you have to understand that at that point I was having doubts about God and anything having to do with the spiritual. So red flags went up glaringly. Something sinister was going on with ESP. In my estimation, if these "spiritual guides" are real to this author, then everything else spiritual was real, including God.

Shortly after this, I tossed the ESP book away and humbly turned to the Lord, though I had no idea to what extent He would accept me back. I felt He was a million miles away. But, oh, the flood of Love and the wieght of my soul being lifted in coming to God was so tremendous, I never felt anything like it. If you truly know the Love of God, then you know what i'm talki ng about.

Which my friend, actually brings us back on point...thank you for your post and thoughts. Well done.

v/r

Q

 

[Dondi]

I don't think you have to sacrifice you scientific mind in favor of the mystical, path_of_one. Science you deal with matter and energy, mystical deals with the spiritual. Who says they cannot co-exist? Where is the conflict?

BTW, your testimony is extremely touching to me, especially in regard to your feeling helpless and frustrated in cases of the terminally ill. no, you are not a nut case, for i do know you care and can truly feel for these people. If we are spiritual beings indise, then we ought to have the ability to sense each other in varying degrees. You are just more sensitive than others in this regard.

 

[path_of_one]

Ah, yes... ESP and spirit guides.

Here's my take on it. Some of ESP, I think, is pretty much scientific and natural but we haven't been able to explain it yet. For example, I don't think empathy and telepathy toward other humans and animals/trees are that spectacular or supernatural. It's just a different method of communication.

Other parts of ESP ranges into the supernatural because it deals with spirit-entities. If you sense spirits and have the capacity to communicate with them, then this can get you into trouble. Spirits (in my opinion) are like people- they are fallible, generally self-centered (not in an evil way, just like we are- they are generally concerned with their own desires and lives), and they run the gamut from ones who have chosen to go against God to ones who are His messengers. There's a slew of nature/elemental/ancestral spirits, in my experience, who aren't demons or angels but more like people. And just like people, spirits can have good advice or information or they can be deceptive, downright mean and damaging, etc.

God, on the other hand, is perfect, beneficient, loving, caring.

Whose advice is better? I rest my case.

That's just my take on it.

I really do not feel that all spirits who aren't angels are evil or bad. There's a bunch of spirits who are just different sorts of people in a way. But one has to be careful about communicating with them because there is a tendency in people to put them above God, to fashion God in their images (which are more like us), to become addicted to and far too involved with the spirit-realm, and to misunderstand the will of God. It can be dangerous, and that is why it's a much better idea to pray to God, to seek after His will, to put faith in Him.

 

[Quahom1]

I'm not a Pisces, but this definitely happens to me. This is why I've sought to more consciously practice empathy, to be more self-aware of what is going on and get better at controlling it. Otherwise, it controls me. Some people are black holes of energy- they just suck energy out of places and people. Others are so hyper that they hype up everyone around them. Some crowds give off so much positive or neutral energy that it's like riding a tidal wave in a way- it's very euphoric. Other crowds give off so much negative energy that it's scary. Places do similar things- some places give off a tremendous amount of energy. I don't think there's much supernatural about any of it. It's just energy, thought, and emotion that I'm responding to. I do think everyone does this, but most aren't as sensitive to it. This is why you get mob mentality and why people love getting together in huge groups to cheer on sports teams, listen to music, and even have religious ritual. There is energetic power in masses of people.

I've had to work to have more control over my empathy rather than the other way 'round. I'm very prone to becoming overwhelmed, depressed, exhausted depending on where I go and the company I keep. Some of this is taking on the energy of others, and some of it is from trying to heal hurts, and some of it is the sheer frustration of sensing things I can do nothing about. When you sense a perfect stranger is suicidal, what do you do? You don't know this person, they are not in immediate danger... what do you do? I've had students with terminal illnesses and felt their life energy waning as they neared death, with nothing I could contribute except prayer. It can be tremendously upsetting to feel all the pain and anger and fractured states of others with little capacity to heal them. The best I can do is sometimes healing a little, but it's often temporary, dependent on me being there. Ah, this is getting into a realm that's a little too personal and makes me sound like I'm nuts. The scientist in me struggles with the mystic at times, I guess.



This is the journey I'm trying to take. I've never had a problem holding myself accountable, though like in every area of life, I've misused empathy at times just as I've sinned in other areas of my life. No one is 100% perfect at controlling their own desires and urges, and that includes me. And just like all of ethics, one has to seek God and ask for the boundaries and standards. My biggest difficulty has been to learn how to avoid damage to myself, to find the line between exercising the gift enough to control it and be self-aware of its implications for my own mental and physical health, and yet not get too curious about my limitations for its own sake. I'm very intellectually curious, and I can't help but want to know what I could do- not for gain, but just for the sake of knowing. How much of reality is pliable, malleable? How much of the bigger picture can I see? A lot of this is driven my desire to help others- I wish I could heal them as well as I can see what's wrong. But I admit that some of this is driven by my own curiousity- what is the power of a single soul in this universe? What are the connections that are woven between us and how deep can they run?

Wow, I'm in a pensive mood today. I should go write.



Yes. Unlike my desire to experiment with empathy and telepathy, I've never wanted any more discernment than I have. In fact, I feel it a real burden. Other than self-protection, I don't know what to do with it. Maybe this will be revealed to me as time goes on.

I'm not that brave like you are, Q. Ordinary human problems and emotions are bad enough sometimes, and the stuff I sometimes get in terms of spiritual states can be downright frightening. Druidry has helped me be a bit less frightened, because it tackles issues of energies and spirits more directly. But honestly, I've experienced some stuff that is scary to me, and all I can do is call on God for His protection and have faith that He will, indeed, protect me. Who knows, maybe that is the point, to keep me running to God. I've always sought after God, but perhaps one day I'll be strong enough in my own faith and spirituality to not ever be fearful... without too many details, I do think this a good deal of the work I'm supposed to do with my own soul in this life, and a reason I am who I am, with the gifts I have.

You know Path, the closer to the "veil" one is, the more questions we ask, and the more uncertain we seem to become...because it is unknown, and at some point, we have to simply trust in our Creator to carry us through that uncertainty.

Talents and gifts are given to us for a reason. One we are worthy of them (potentially), Two we are expected to use them (correctly). Three we have to answer for them (eventually). Four we should ask the originator for instructions (intuitively).

I remember when my father threw the keys to the 65 rag top Ford Thunderbird into my hands and said "take her for a spin, it's yours"...I was 17.

I got behind the wheel, only the wheel was over in the passenger seat side of the car...and I didn't know how to bring it back over to my seat... (the driver's seat).

I almost got out of the car and threw the keys back to my dad with a sarcastic "no thanks". But I really wanted to drive that car, as did my dad. He was just waiting for me to either figure it out for myself, or ask him to assist...

I asked him if he wou...and he jumped right into the passenger seat, flipped the steering wheel into my hands and said with gusto, "let's see what she can do!" His mouth was set, but his eyes were dancing with delight. As for me, I was grinning from ear to ear, having all this power in my hands, but having my Dad sitting right next to me in case I messed up.

That was the BEST ride of my life! And we rode for hours (all night in fact). But here is the kicker, with all that power in my hands (390 cubic inch four barrel carbureated V-8), I treated that car like it was precious gold, even though I could jump on the gas (it was mine after all), I didn't want to displease my father, with the "gift" he'd given me.

Does that make sense?

v/r

Q

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Which is why I said I don't put too much stock in tongues, I look for changes in my life to confirm my relationship to God. And my relationship to God is not something that I can prove to you nor anyone else, it just is. My own confirmation of God comes from the fact that my life has changed for the better as I've learned to trust in Something I cannot prove objectively. Knowing the Divine is a purely subjective experience based on faith. It's knowing a sense of Love I've never experienced before, and finding an ability to love as a result. If God doesn't exist, then I've lost nothing by believing, rather I've gained more than I'd hoped for, for I've learned to love. The testamony of a changed life, therefore is all I have to offer.

Sorry, Dondi, I think I was projecting my issues onto you. I personally find myself seeking evidence of God's existence or non-existence. I took your testimony as promotion of evidence by you for the existence of God. My mistake. All the same, for myself and others like me who are seeking evidence for or against the existence of God, the fact that my personal experience was the exact opposite of yours proves to me that God is perhaps more an idea than a reality. Or that the Christian God is not the All. I would tend for the latter because of so many personal spiritual experiences. The "conversion" experience is the same, the new insights and understanding are the same, the changed life and personality are the same. The only difference is that I was on my way out of religion and you were on your way into religion. Maybe this is evidence of God's universal and unconditional love for all humans everywhere in language and symbols that are meaningful for them personally.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

From Post 39:

Edited- people posted while I was writing. I'm responding to the suggestion that ecstasy can be a result of secular experiences. I think Dondi's response was good, but speaking in tongues as a result of ecstasy is certainly not limited to Christianity. It's actually pretty common cross-culturally.

I got a response from the person who did her PhD dissertaion on glossolalia or speaking in tongues. It agrees with your insight, path of one. She gave permission to post it but it is rather long so here is her summary paragraph:

[T]ongue-speaking or 'charismatic' behaviour occurs in those who deny religion and who do not regard themselves as 'christian'. Subsequently, the behaviour is interpreted by and within the individual's environment. Is it the "holy spirit" or is it an energy beyond and within oneself? Further complicating the discussion is vocabulary and believes and values. One's past and present socialization affects one's understanding of what is human and what is 'spirit.' How one regards the human being and the universe is how one interprets human behaviour. Ontos and episteme are at stack here.

 

[taijasi]

I wanted to add a few short comments, since so many of my favorite topics have been touched upon in this thread ... and I'll try to do so within context:

1. Relevant to George Harrison's comments, and the mystical experiences of the Beatles in general, I would like to suggest that indeed, LSD and other hallucinogenic drugs can & do afford a glimpse of the blissful, Divine consciousness which Christians call `God.' I have no hesitation in stating this, nor am I the least bit uncertain about what I am saying. However, the experience which is tapped during drug usage comes at a cost - and the results are impermanent, whereas those gained as Gifts of the Spirit are (at least potentially) permanent.
2. Further, the cost of mystical experience gained from drugs such as LSD, other hallucinogenics, or even the milder narcotics - far outweighs the fleeting benefit gained. Anyone with a sincere interest should perhaps talk to Pohwaikahine, since she will be able to tell you all you need to know about the pineal gland and pituitary body. These are the organs connected with psychic sense (in the material organism, or human body) - although this could really only be associated with the least `Gifts of the Spirit,' at best.
3. The Bible is not without its reference to the energy body - or `nephesh' ... which houses the seven energy centers (chakras) to which you referred, Path. The familiar `silver cord' so often spoken of in relation to `astral projection' is also plainly referenced in the Bible. Consult Ecclesiastes 12:6-7.
4. When it comes to the energy of the chakras, it's best to let things take their course naturally, as you discovered, Path. Only upon the wise & direct counsel of a truly Enlightened Spiritual Guide (I take the Master JESUS to be a prime example) - should ANY student ever meditate upon the energy centers. The one exception is the Heart Center, if one feels comfortable ... visualizing LOVE has never done anyone harm. And this is surely the Greatest `Gift of the Spirit.'
5. One of the consequences (though not the worst) of premature awakening to the `astral plane' (the psychic world to which you refer, Path, from direct experience) ... is indeed the possibility of contact with lower elemental spirits, as well as the shades or shells of human beings who have passed on. This can be very unpleasant, and I'm not surprised that many Christians would tend to call these "evil spirits." They aren't actually evil, although shells & shades can be seized upon and used for evil purposes. Path, your sharing of your experiences really helps put all this into context, I think. Those who are serious about spiritual development, and who wish to develop the true, Higher `Gifts of the Spirit' (and not simple psychic abilities) - should not dabble in the astral world. As an aspiring esotericist, I can think of no greater advice than the adage - "Fools rush in, where Angels fear to tread!"
6. All of this notwithstanding, since this thread is about `Gifts of the Spirit,' I would add that one of the Greatest Gifts ... is surely the ability to spiritually "hear," Discern, and respond to - the Voice, Call and prompting of one's own Innermost Spiritual Guide, whomever & however we choose to so regard Him/Her. The Christian who has any doubt or questions can always safely seek refuge in the spiritual Presence of Christed Jesus ... yet I would also like to state, for the record, that additional Wise, Loving & equally competent Guides exist. I would AGAIN second everything that Path has said (et al) - when it comes to the importance of DISCERNMENT. But let me assure you (`whoever' "you" ARE - ) .... there are Teachers within the `Higher, spiritual worlds' - who DO exist for the same, selfless, Loving reason(s) as Christ Jesus. That we may come to acknowledge Them, seek Them, and learn to Serve alongside Them is the whole purpose of St. Paul's Epistle to the people of Ephesus (Ch.4,v.13). He was simply affirming what he himself had already proven, in certain measure, through CHRIST IN HIM ...
7. And so, finally - again keeping things in context, I'd like to summarize what I've learned in 16+ years of studying - and experiencing - psychic abilities ("lesser" `Gifts of the Spirit'), plus those Greater `Gifts of the Spirit' - which I think we ALL have undoubtedly experienced from time to time (else I dare say any of us would BE here, at CR). The bottom line, as I've discovered, is that we should understand the distinction I've just made. The correspondence is mostly between our "psychological-psychic" nature and LESSER `Gifts,' and our Spiritual Nature and GREATER `Gifts.' There is nothing wrong with the former, but without the latter - we lack the Wisdom and the Foundation for their proper usage. EVERY book on Esotericism (`White Magic') emphasizes this. The Spiritual Masters to Whom I refer do not operate on the astral plane, save through the loving aura of Their disciples - yet Their VOICE (the `WORD') can be heard right here, within the physical - in each moment, in any place, in any set of circumstances. This has ALWAYS been true, and ever it shall be.

One Voice, One Word, One Plan, One Purpose - And the surest way to hear and follow ... no matter what the need of the moment, is to seek the Sanctuary of the Temple within (HEART) ...

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

On a personal note, I've grown up with a clairvoyant sister (5 years younger, so she's 29) all my life. I've experienced clear, direct, verbal telepathy on several occasions - as well as shared dreams, with virtual strangers, which were later verified as being "beyond a shadow of a doubt," if you will. I can walk outside, look up, and see the LIFE of God (`prana,' or CHI) any sunny day of the year - and so can most of us here, I should imagine. We are simply used to believing that "it's a trick of the eyes," or "it's dead skin cells," or whatever else we've grown accustomed to saying.

I've certainly had lucid dreams, and found myself stepping through my kitchen when I know good & well my body was/is in bed upstairs. I've been "yanked back" and jerked awake more times than I can count, as most folks here have ALSO experienced. That's nature - GOD, if you prefer - but the point is, our Soul (Spirit, etc.) has things pretty well in hand, even for those who like to dabble. But we are always advised against that ... a simple prayer to be of service in the dream-world is all we need say or do.

I've experienced ONEness with everything from an apple (ohhh, taboo!!! lol) ... to my own spiritual Guru/Guide (or at least, the one with Whom I'd come to aspire & associate) ... to the glowing, radiant, loving, and powerful network of Servers who are far, far beyond me on the Spiritual Path (the Greater `Ashram'). I've known since I was TWO that there was much, much more to `Jesus' than I was hearing in church (Lutheran, and a well-grounded congregation at that, not the least bit pontifical, or unpleasant!). And I haven't been afraid to explore, if, perhaps, I may have often been hasty to offer up the fruits of my experiences here at CR.

But then, I have my parents to thank, for being open-minded and intellectual - strong in their faith, yet equally strong in their powers of reason, and of healthy skepticism. I have said before that I walked away from Christianity by about age 13, because it was easier to sleep in on Sunday mornings. And I am GLAD that I was free of what would otherwise have been for me - shackles - so that I could explore the worlds of religion(s), spirituality(ies), faith and philosophy ... with as little bias or prejudice as possible. My only regret, is that somewhere along the way I have perhaps balked at the recognition of some of my own karma, which I regard as part of our collective HUMAN karma (meaning that we all have a stake in Christianity, and vice versa ... though this will also apply to every other religion, ideology and philosophy). Yes indeed! sighhhhh ....

If this makes no sense, then please forgive my babbling. I simply wish sometimes, that people would just take me at my word - such that if I say, There are Guides (Loving Guides, as Christ Jesus), nothing more need be said. And if I say, These Guides are examples of Ephesians 4:13, again - no more need be said. NO MAN (or woman) comes to that fullness if or while s/he still seeks the lesser gifts (`psychic abilities'), thus evil has its boundaries - and the worlds of Spirit transcend and encompass all that is below, both of the earth - and of our human psychology (including dreams, save where these penetrate to Spirit Itself). Nevermind - if I were to say, I was a Christian after Christ ... I suppose it were blasphemy, for that was then, and this is now.

Actions make the man ...

Love and Light,

taijasi

 

[RubySera_Martin]

The Gift of discernment, however is a different matter. It is like life, in that it can be given, and be taken away in an instant. It is not natural, but rather supernatural. There are certain expectations that the "God" has of the recipient of that particular gift. Else, God would not have given that gift to begin with. It is not an advantage (like empathy could be), but rather a burden, or accountable (in specific fashion). Unlike Empathy which can be "invested" in (or strengthened), discernment is given to the recipient "fully developed". That is all you get, and it is enough for God's intention.

Where empathy waxes and wanes, discernment is fixed. You have it or you don't. And unlike empathy, discernment is not something anyone who has, wishes to have more of. That desire is not there. Discernment is a "gift" that has "strings attached". Cut the strings, and lose the gift...

my thoughts so far

v/r

Q

I think you must be talking about a special kind of discernment. The word "discern" in the everyday sense simply means the intellectual function of figuring out which is the best of two different options, to notice something--pick up information such as a barely visible object--from its surrounding background, etc.

I have always understood spiritual discernment as meaning to differentiate between the good and evil spirits. Empathetic discernment would probably be to become aware of another person's unspoken and invisible condition of emotions or body or spirit.

For a person who does not normally pick up on these things it might possibly appear like a mysterious and powerful thing to be feared and reckoned with. But for a person for whom this is natural I don't think anyone need to attach any supernatural values to it at all. It's simply being aware of psychological nuances and how they are expressed.

In other words, the signals are not invisible and unexpressed. They are expressed visibly or audibly or via pattern of thought or behaviour that is quite obvious to anyone who is awake and aware of this level of nuance. It might be necessary to realize that others are not the same as you. The person who thinks that "everybody's like me and anybody's who's not is wierd" is not going to see it.

Learning to recognize and correctly identify these nuances is a life-long task. Thus, the idea that discernment is like life--either you have it or you don't--is incorrect. Just put yourself inside the other person's skin, mindset, emoting habits, etc., and you're ready to start learning.

 

[RubySera_Martin]

Good point, however you can see that I am deliberately bringing us back to Christian thought on these issues. I think that is where we should concentrate our efforts.

v/r

Q

Somebody becoming uncomfortable with exploring the extents of the gifts of the Spirit? Gifts of the Spirit is, after all, very much a Christian concept. I've never heard or read of it in other religions as such. Instead, it's a given reality that needs no explanation. Only in the hard-core intellectual West would such a concept require a special term.