RubySera_Martin
Well-Known Member
I've come to the end of the thread at last. Taijasi, your post leaves me exhausted. There is so MUCH in it. Thanks, everyone, for sharing.
Ruby
Ruby
Gifts of the Spirit
- Thread starter cavalier
- Start date
A lot has been written since I made my last post last night.
Dondi, I was interested that you said you didn't put a lot of stock in speaking in tongues. All my experiences with this before have been with people who did put a lot of stock in it. I had assumed that everyone who spoke in tongues in the "charismatic sense" felt this way about they were doing. Now I know better.
and yes, my brother is a devout Christian, not particularly charismatic, he would certainly never speak in tongues in this sense while at church.
Path, you said that everything is spiritual for you, I can understand that, in fact that idea came to me as I was writing my post last night. From what you wrote though, it seems that you are celebrating life, that you have a heightened state of awareness. I would suggest that my brother was experiencing something entirely different. He was celebrating his idol, his Golden Calf, Liverpool FC.
Ok, as both you and Ruby's friend have stated, charismatic behavior is not limited to Christians. It could still be the Holy Spirit which moves people but in most cases I just don't buy it. Were those Israelites who worshipped the Golden Calf moved by the Holy Spirit? I don't think so. They were moved by something though, perhaps the same thing that moved my brother that day, and I believe, the same thing which moves many people in charismatic churches around the world.
My worry is that charismatic behavior is a distraction away from God, rather than something which might bring us closer.
Dondi, I was interested that you said you didn't put a lot of stock in speaking in tongues. All my experiences with this before have been with people who did put a lot of stock in it. I had assumed that everyone who spoke in tongues in the "charismatic sense" felt this way about they were doing. Now I know better.
and yes, my brother is a devout Christian, not particularly charismatic, he would certainly never speak in tongues in this sense while at church.
Path, you said that everything is spiritual for you, I can understand that, in fact that idea came to me as I was writing my post last night. From what you wrote though, it seems that you are celebrating life, that you have a heightened state of awareness. I would suggest that my brother was experiencing something entirely different. He was celebrating his idol, his Golden Calf, Liverpool FC.
Ok, as both you and Ruby's friend have stated, charismatic behavior is not limited to Christians. It could still be the Holy Spirit which moves people but in most cases I just don't buy it. Were those Israelites who worshipped the Golden Calf moved by the Holy Spirit? I don't think so. They were moved by something though, perhaps the same thing that moved my brother that day, and I believe, the same thing which moves many people in charismatic churches around the world.
My worry is that charismatic behavior is a distraction away from God, rather than something which might bring us closer.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
...which could be an explaination as to why such gifts are said to be temporary in 1 Corinthians 13:8....cavalier said:
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I guess I just don't believe everything is so black and white. One can have an experience or emotion (ecstasy) without it being from either God or Satan. My point is that it can just be a response to the energy of a crowd, a place, whatever.
Again, I liken it to dreaming- it is an altered state of consciousness. Dreams are not all from God or Satan. Most are just from ourselves and the world around us, and we interpret them. Unless we choose to use trance/ecstasy/whatever to connect to God or Satan, we are just having an experience that is the waking equivalent to dreaming- getting into a new state of consciousness.
People mostly think this state feels good. So do lots of other things in life. But just as all this other feel-good experience is not necessarily a distraction from God, neither is ecstasy/trance. It's only if we lift it up as our purpose, our goal, our "golden calf," that it becomes a barrier rather than a doorway to the Divine.
My guess is that your brother got caught up in the wave of energy from the crowd, and this brought on the altered state. Not from God, nor from Satan. Just from humanity. There's a lot more power in humanity than you'd think. Most people are unaware of the small, subtle energy interactions of everyday life. This is magnified in crowds with strong emotions, and it has the power to influence people who are not normally impacted much by others the way an empath would be.
I hate to say it, but the feeling I've gotten in many mega-churches during impassioned sermons calling people to convert, and the resulting chaotic jumble of emotions and rush to the altar, are not much different from the feeling I've gotten in many a rock concert, sporting event, or other secular activity where emotions and energy runs high and crowds "feed" off each other. I don't think it's Satanic, but rather that it can become an obstacle to our relationship with God IF we put it before God.
Again, I liken it to dreaming- it is an altered state of consciousness. Dreams are not all from God or Satan. Most are just from ourselves and the world around us, and we interpret them. Unless we choose to use trance/ecstasy/whatever to connect to God or Satan, we are just having an experience that is the waking equivalent to dreaming- getting into a new state of consciousness.
People mostly think this state feels good. So do lots of other things in life. But just as all this other feel-good experience is not necessarily a distraction from God, neither is ecstasy/trance. It's only if we lift it up as our purpose, our goal, our "golden calf," that it becomes a barrier rather than a doorway to the Divine.
My guess is that your brother got caught up in the wave of energy from the crowd, and this brought on the altered state. Not from God, nor from Satan. Just from humanity. There's a lot more power in humanity than you'd think. Most people are unaware of the small, subtle energy interactions of everyday life. This is magnified in crowds with strong emotions, and it has the power to influence people who are not normally impacted much by others the way an empath would be.
I hate to say it, but the feeling I've gotten in many mega-churches during impassioned sermons calling people to convert, and the resulting chaotic jumble of emotions and rush to the altar, are not much different from the feeling I've gotten in many a rock concert, sporting event, or other secular activity where emotions and energy runs high and crowds "feed" off each other. I don't think it's Satanic, but rather that it can become an obstacle to our relationship with God IF we put it before God.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
It would we who draw away from God. Notice how these charisms are compared the traits of children:cavalier said:
If we draw away from our faith, hope, and God's love, then these charisms become empty, or idolatrous, as path_of_one pointed out.1 Corinthians 13 said:
I wouldn't say that these charisms are not from God, but these charisms can show just whose children we want to be....1 Corinthians 13 said:
RubySera_Martin said:
Perhaps but scripturally we are warned that even the faithful might be led astray, therefore also scripturally we are told some are provided with the supernatural gift of discerning that which is beyond the normal abilities of man. Now, you don't really have issue with me persee, because I didn't set the standards. You see things one way, and the Bible states it another way.
v/r
Q
Dondi
Well-Known Member
cavalier said:
This was a reason I veered off to talk about George Harrison. Or to anyone who is not of Christian influence. That it is agreed that such "gifts' as tongues are not limited to Christianity may speak of the ability of the human soul to "harbor" such gifts in general. Perhaps we ought to ask from what source are these gifts manifested. Maybe there are Gifts of the Spirit, and maybe there are Gifts of a spirit, the difference is the source. In the Christian view, manifestation of legitimate Gifts of the Spirit come from God. Whereas in other cases, the gifts come from another spirit (much like taijasi's spirtual guides) Or as path_of_one suggests, the energy of other human spirits.
One example in scripture that intrigues me is the incidient of the witch of Endor in bringing up Samuel from the grave in I Samuel 28:7-25:
"Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do."
I've wondered that since this woman is already familiar to the spiritual world and indeed has a familiar spirit that evidently kept her employed, why was she so aghasted when Samuel appeared? I mean, she was scared out of her wits. Now I have reason to believe that this was actually Samuel who appeared and not just some apperation posing as Samuel, just because of the surprise of the woman who called him. There must have been some level of energy she never experienced before. One greater that the spirit that she was used to. To have such a one as Samuel, who was a prophet of God must have been overwhelming. Here was a being greater than the one she was used to.
In the same manner, if the source of our gifts come directly from God, then we could naturally assume that the manifestation would be greater than coming from, say, and "ascended master" or some lower form of spirit. And as path_of_one pointed out, a gift coming from God would be safer than from another source, as God is the ultimate in benevolence, careing, and love.
To seek from a source other from God, there no guarentee what one might encounter, which is why Christian tend to stay away from the possibilities of deriving gifts from other sources, as that is indeed forbidden in scripture anyway.
As Christian doctrine has once again been grossly misrepresented I feel it might serve some purpose to try and clarify the mess:
The below is edited from http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/38944-post3.html
in an attempt to keep it in context.
"And the Lord God formed man [adam] of the dust of the ground [adamah],
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [neshamah];
and man became a living [chay] soul [nephesh]." (Genesis 2:7)
Nefesh (psyche in Greek; anima in Latin) The animal or sanguinary soul
This is the blood or astral body, and the order of astral experience - the astral realm is the sum total or human experience - the akashic record. Through diligence and practice one can open oneself into the astral plane, but as this realm is the counterpart of the animic or material realm itself, it is populated by the product of life at all levels and therefore is an operation undertaken not without risk. Suffice to say that all human endeavour leaves its trace here, be it good or bad. As the samurai say 'the strong eat, the weak are meat' and this is certainly the case in the lower orders of the astral plane - it is the great eating. This is why the shaman undergoes rigorous training to travel here - and the utilisation of psychtropic drugs by shamen is a signifier of the downward trend of this cycle - the kali yuga or Age of Iron.
The point here is that psychotropics can open indiscriminately, effectively a false entry, into the astral realm. It's a bit like falling through a hole in the floor into anothetr ime and space - the disorientation leaves one utterly vulnerable - in physical terms you've just got off the train and no idea where you are, what to do ... and it won't be long before someone sidles up and says "Hi ... "
I don't want to spend too much time here, but suffice to say that when the alcoholic suffers nightmarish visions in the throes of delerium tremens - he is seeing through a window into the lower order of the astral world.
OTOH, this is the faerie realm, and the abode of the elementals.
It is also the esoteric understanding behind heraldry, for example, and as well as the symbolic language of shields, there are also the heraldic beasts that are no more nor less than the astral forms, projected collectively or individually, into the unseen world. The City of London, for example, has a griffin posted at its boundaries.
This is the level of most, if not all, ecstatic experience and of course, where a crowd is of one mind, then the individual becomes increasingly susceptible.
It is the world of the incubus and succubus, and outside the cover of tradition everyone is 'possessed' of it to some degree. Rites of initiation often involve the cleansing of all astral contamination from the individual, and this is the proper meaning and value of 'virginity'. It is the level of 'mechanical' ghosts, who are nothing but the 'recording' replayed, but it is a great feeding, and all these forms, in decline being unattached to a physical body, attach themselves to the physical to gain sustenance (the idea of vampires originates here, and in a sense they are very real) ... it is also the grave danger of seeking 'spirit guides' and the like who attach themselves to you, supposedly in service, whilst all the time feeding ...
This is the realm, as has been said, where fools rush in...
+++
Ruach (nous/pneuma | spiritus) The mental soul
The term 'ruach' is used in many senses and can only be properly understood against in the total context of scripture. It means 'breath' (in the anthropological sense) or 'wind' (in the spiritual), and as such can express the principle of animal and all life, although it never designates an individual being, but rather the principle of life as such: "In whose hand [is] the soul [nefesh] of every living thing [chay], and the breath [ruach] of all mankind," (Job 12:10)
Thus ruach can imply a transcendant, or a transpersonal, quality, and as such we have not necessarily risen above the cosmological. Ruach in reference to the Spirit of God is Divine, but ruach in reference to the spirit of man is not. Further 'ruach' in the human sense can encompass error, "They also that erred in spirit [ruach]" (Isaias 29:44) and this can signify disorder, passion, even madness, "Terrors are turned upon me: they pursue my soul as the wind [ruach]" (Job 30:15), or "Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind [ruach] and confusion," (Isaias 41:29).
As the cited texts indicate, to assume one is 'safe' here is to make a great mistake. I shall not dwell here, but whereas in the astral one can talk of 'essences' that are to a greater or lesser degree vegetative or animic, in the psychic realm we start to talk about 'presences' and this is a whole different ballgame.
In short, anyone who makes light of this, doesn't know what he or she is talking about.
And for the second time in recent days, I am talking from first hand experience, although this time of a different order.
+++
Neshamah (pneuma/pnoe | spiritus/spiraculum/habitus) The spiritualised soul
Neshamah is the breath, be it human or divine. Here great care must be taken to differentiate between neshamah as a natural quality of the human spirit, and neshamah as a supernatural quality infused by the Divine Breath, a situation made more difficult by ther apparent interchangeability of ruach and neshamah: "All the while my breath [neshamah] is in me, and the spirit [ruach] of God is in my nostrils;" Job 27:3
Thus true Gifts of the Spirit belong here (there is a correlate with shekinah) and the point is they are given - whilst neshamah sanctifies man, it remains in and of itself Divine and forms no part of his individual nature: "The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8) It is through neshamah we receive our life from God, and it is through neshamah we must also return to Him, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," (John 3:6) upon the breath of prayer: "Let every thing that hath breath [neshamah] praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord."
This is where religious experience 'for real' occurs, and it lies beyond the capacity of the collective or the individual to induce it.
To suggest that LSD and the Holy Spirit are synonymous is ludicrous nonsense, and to likewise suggest that one might as well pop a tab of acid as pursue a virtuous life is contemptible.
Thomas
The below is edited from http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/38944-post3.html
in an attempt to keep it in context.
"And the Lord God formed man [adam] of the dust of the ground [adamah],
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [neshamah];
and man became a living [chay] soul [nephesh]." (Genesis 2:7)
Nefesh (psyche in Greek; anima in Latin) The animal or sanguinary soul
This is the blood or astral body, and the order of astral experience - the astral realm is the sum total or human experience - the akashic record. Through diligence and practice one can open oneself into the astral plane, but as this realm is the counterpart of the animic or material realm itself, it is populated by the product of life at all levels and therefore is an operation undertaken not without risk. Suffice to say that all human endeavour leaves its trace here, be it good or bad. As the samurai say 'the strong eat, the weak are meat' and this is certainly the case in the lower orders of the astral plane - it is the great eating. This is why the shaman undergoes rigorous training to travel here - and the utilisation of psychtropic drugs by shamen is a signifier of the downward trend of this cycle - the kali yuga or Age of Iron.
The point here is that psychotropics can open indiscriminately, effectively a false entry, into the astral realm. It's a bit like falling through a hole in the floor into anothetr ime and space - the disorientation leaves one utterly vulnerable - in physical terms you've just got off the train and no idea where you are, what to do ... and it won't be long before someone sidles up and says "Hi ... "
I don't want to spend too much time here, but suffice to say that when the alcoholic suffers nightmarish visions in the throes of delerium tremens - he is seeing through a window into the lower order of the astral world.
OTOH, this is the faerie realm, and the abode of the elementals.
It is also the esoteric understanding behind heraldry, for example, and as well as the symbolic language of shields, there are also the heraldic beasts that are no more nor less than the astral forms, projected collectively or individually, into the unseen world. The City of London, for example, has a griffin posted at its boundaries.
This is the level of most, if not all, ecstatic experience and of course, where a crowd is of one mind, then the individual becomes increasingly susceptible.
It is the world of the incubus and succubus, and outside the cover of tradition everyone is 'possessed' of it to some degree. Rites of initiation often involve the cleansing of all astral contamination from the individual, and this is the proper meaning and value of 'virginity'. It is the level of 'mechanical' ghosts, who are nothing but the 'recording' replayed, but it is a great feeding, and all these forms, in decline being unattached to a physical body, attach themselves to the physical to gain sustenance (the idea of vampires originates here, and in a sense they are very real) ... it is also the grave danger of seeking 'spirit guides' and the like who attach themselves to you, supposedly in service, whilst all the time feeding ...
This is the realm, as has been said, where fools rush in...
+++
Ruach (nous/pneuma | spiritus) The mental soul
The term 'ruach' is used in many senses and can only be properly understood against in the total context of scripture. It means 'breath' (in the anthropological sense) or 'wind' (in the spiritual), and as such can express the principle of animal and all life, although it never designates an individual being, but rather the principle of life as such: "In whose hand [is] the soul [nefesh] of every living thing [chay], and the breath [ruach] of all mankind," (Job 12:10)
Thus ruach can imply a transcendant, or a transpersonal, quality, and as such we have not necessarily risen above the cosmological. Ruach in reference to the Spirit of God is Divine, but ruach in reference to the spirit of man is not. Further 'ruach' in the human sense can encompass error, "They also that erred in spirit [ruach]" (Isaias 29:44) and this can signify disorder, passion, even madness, "Terrors are turned upon me: they pursue my soul as the wind [ruach]" (Job 30:15), or "Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind [ruach] and confusion," (Isaias 41:29).
As the cited texts indicate, to assume one is 'safe' here is to make a great mistake. I shall not dwell here, but whereas in the astral one can talk of 'essences' that are to a greater or lesser degree vegetative or animic, in the psychic realm we start to talk about 'presences' and this is a whole different ballgame.
In short, anyone who makes light of this, doesn't know what he or she is talking about.
And for the second time in recent days, I am talking from first hand experience, although this time of a different order.
+++
Neshamah (pneuma/pnoe | spiritus/spiraculum/habitus) The spiritualised soul
Neshamah is the breath, be it human or divine. Here great care must be taken to differentiate between neshamah as a natural quality of the human spirit, and neshamah as a supernatural quality infused by the Divine Breath, a situation made more difficult by ther apparent interchangeability of ruach and neshamah: "All the while my breath [neshamah] is in me, and the spirit [ruach] of God is in my nostrils;" Job 27:3
Thus true Gifts of the Spirit belong here (there is a correlate with shekinah) and the point is they are given - whilst neshamah sanctifies man, it remains in and of itself Divine and forms no part of his individual nature: "The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8) It is through neshamah we receive our life from God, and it is through neshamah we must also return to Him, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," (John 3:6) upon the breath of prayer: "Let every thing that hath breath [neshamah] praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord."
This is where religious experience 'for real' occurs, and it lies beyond the capacity of the collective or the individual to induce it.
To suggest that LSD and the Holy Spirit are synonymous is ludicrous nonsense, and to likewise suggest that one might as well pop a tab of acid as pursue a virtuous life is contemptible.
Thomas
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Thomas,
I don't think anyone here has equated LSD with the Holy Spirit, only that the use of LSD has opened some people up to the realm of the spirit or at least become sensitive to the spiritual realm, whatever plane that might be. If what you say is true, it may very well be that during hallucenigetic drug use, the person opens him/herself to attract these astral beings.
Let me ask you something of curiousity, though. what would you call those beings that were cast into the swine of pigs from the possessed man in Mark 5. Were they astral being? If so, this opens up the question of animal possession in the nefesh.
Still another question is if there are counterfiet "gifts" that do not orginate from God, if one believes that tongues and other spiritual gifts are not an exclusively Christian phenom, where are they originating?
I don't think anyone here has equated LSD with the Holy Spirit, only that the use of LSD has opened some people up to the realm of the spirit or at least become sensitive to the spiritual realm, whatever plane that might be. If what you say is true, it may very well be that during hallucenigetic drug use, the person opens him/herself to attract these astral beings.
Let me ask you something of curiousity, though. what would you call those beings that were cast into the swine of pigs from the possessed man in Mark 5. Were they astral being? If so, this opens up the question of animal possession in the nefesh.
Still another question is if there are counterfiet "gifts" that do not orginate from God, if one believes that tongues and other spiritual gifts are not an exclusively Christian phenom, where are they originating?
I agree.path_of_one said:
I agree, didn't I write pretty much the same thing in my first post on this topic?path_of_one said:
That's exactly my point. I don't think it's Satanic either.path_of_one said:
Exactly, this is the point, so many people believe that this feeling is of God that it will for them get in the way.path_of_one said:
Namaste Thomas,Thomas said:
It seems this statement is analogous to the discussion that evolution means we evolved from monkees. The professionals that have been investigating hallucinogenic affects of man made and natural substances for the past 50 years have now got tons of data and interviews with test subjects. They've investigated indigenous and tribal peoples that use various methods to induce the euphoria found chemically, some due it through ingestion, others with smoking, some through chanting, trances, dances, fasting....praying, meditation, contemplation....seemingly many have similar results...to the tune that they are now discussed as theogenics, G-d inducing drugs.
They've monitored the parts of the brain activated, done intake and outake interviews and when possible (usually only on the drugs, since the participant has a more passive role, than the one concentrating (meditation, praying) or the ones active (chanting, dancing)..when they are on a drug they are sitting with a therapist answering questions about what they see...
And from the discussion I've had with the researchers...across the board, when they've been properly dosed something happens similar to all of them.
a. They realize one ness, with everyone, everything and G-d
b. They have no desire to do it again, it was a wonderful experience but the experience of a lifetime...and they become in some way shape or form spiritual if they weren't and more spiritual if they were.
Controlled use of controlled substances...not advocating experiential use in anyway. Could be a reason the medicine and spiritual men of the past discovered, were led to these substances.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
cavalier said:
Sorry, cavalier, I think I misunderstood you. I will say, though, that I think the feeling can be from God, but isn't always from God. I don't think it gets in the way for me to connect with God at times and have this feeling. But it would get in the way if that became my goal rather than spiritual transformation or progress. That is, I don't think it is problematic to think this is of God unless it becomes your evidence of God, your primary goal, etc.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
I don't buy into the notion that "holy laughter", "slain in the Spirit", or the "spiritual unction to run aroud the perimeter of the sanctuary", which I've seen, as being anything but being caught up in this altered state. But altered state of what?
By by the same token, I don't believe we should discount all cases as being ingenuine. We are all made of the same stuff, physicall, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. It would stand to reason that if this is a spiritual phenomenon, we should not be surprised to see this occur in anywhere there is a spiritual connection, regardless of what that connection is. And that is where discernment plays such a big part. I have heard that in cases of certain exorcism there were cases when the subject spoke in tongues. certainly no one would attribute this instance to be from God.
More importantly, is in any that tongue-speaking, or any gift for that matter, there ought to be a determination of whether the life of the person possessing the gift, or person toward whom gift is directed toward, has changed. Is this connection bringing a sense of life and enjoyment to the person? Does the life produce the type of living desired? Or is it producing harmful effects?
By by the same token, I don't believe we should discount all cases as being ingenuine. We are all made of the same stuff, physicall, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. It would stand to reason that if this is a spiritual phenomenon, we should not be surprised to see this occur in anywhere there is a spiritual connection, regardless of what that connection is. And that is where discernment plays such a big part. I have heard that in cases of certain exorcism there were cases when the subject spoke in tongues. certainly no one would attribute this instance to be from God.
More importantly, is in any that tongue-speaking, or any gift for that matter, there ought to be a determination of whether the life of the person possessing the gift, or person toward whom gift is directed toward, has changed. Is this connection bringing a sense of life and enjoyment to the person? Does the life produce the type of living desired? Or is it producing harmful effects?
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Quahom1 said:
I've never seen this done, in person, on any spectacular scale.
I've had some success myself in healing other people's headaches and other minor issues. I can take away or reduce pain but I can't take away illness. Certain crystals amplify this, oddly enough. There's no logical explanation for it, but I get better results. I've also had some success in healing injuries in my animals. I've never been trained in Reiki, but I think what I do is probably pretty similar. It's not very supernatural or exciting, really. It doesn't involve anything but manipulating energy.
I've found that I can take people who are emotionally distraught and calm them down and alter their emotional state. I don't have to have direct contact with them or talk with them at all, as long as I'm in the same room. But it comes at a cost to me and is not permanent. It's more or less an energetic exchange as well, but I will admit it is an invasion of their privacy because it involves altering how they are thinking and feeling. Of course, this isn't that amazing either and I couldn't do anything very spectacular- I can make depressed people happier, people who are severely anxious or afraid comfortable, that sort of thing. I couldn't make a seriously insane person rational or anything that dramatic.
I've seen so many people suffer; I wish healing was more common. I want to have faith in the capacity of people to heal, but honestly I've never seen it on the scale that you read about in the Gospels. I'm skeptical of the stuff you see on TV, and pretty much anyone who would heal for their own benefit and for their own prestige. I think if one is genuinely compassionate, one wants to heal because one feels deeply for those who suffer. I know if I could heal in any long-term, miraculous way, I would prefer to not be recognized or make any profit from it. It doesn't seem right to have someone profit from what God does, you know?
I will add that although I have never seen someone dramatically heal someone else, I have seen people miraculously get well. I've seen God heal people, even people who were dead for a while. But as I understand the gift, it is a gift to heal others and not just describing how some people miraculously are healed by an act of God working independent of a human agent.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Thank you, in your demonstration of skill, tact, diplomacy and charity, for reminding me of a prayer that is applicable here, Thomas:Thomas said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Deliver me Jesus
from the desire of being loved;
from the desire of being honored;
from the desire of being praised;
from the desire of being preferred to others;
from the desire of being consulted;
from the desire of being approved;
from the fear of being humiliated;
from the fear of being despised;
from the fear of suffering rebuke;
from the fear of being forgotten;
from the fear of being wrong;
from the fear of being suspected."[/FONT]
Still, I would correct an error regarding the relationship between the astral-emotional world and the `Akashic.' These are not synonyms. The "Akashic record" you mention - Biblically referred to as "The Book of God's Remembrance," exists with the realm or abode of PURE SPIRIT. It has NOTHING to do with the astral-emotional plane - even its highest ethers. For as you have described, the lower portions of that realm have everything to do with our animal nature ... and even the higher astral is but a dim, pale reflection of the realm(s) of Pure NOUS, or Spirit. from the desire of being loved;
from the desire of being honored;
from the desire of being praised;
from the desire of being preferred to others;
from the desire of being consulted;
from the desire of being approved;
from the fear of being humiliated;
from the fear of being despised;
from the fear of suffering rebuke;
from the fear of being forgotten;
from the fear of being wrong;
from the fear of being suspected."[/FONT]
And here I thought Christians typically prayed to Christ Jesus regarding how THEY MIGHT SERVE, and not how they might BE SERVED. I guess I was wrong. Interesting, since the `Unification Mantram' uttered by esotericists also begins:Thomas said:
The sons of men are one, and I am one with them.
I seek to Love, not hate;
I seek to Serve, and not exact due service;
I seek to heal, not hurt.
And again, for the record, esotericists do not "sit for development," meaning that they do not open themselves unwittingly or as a rule to astral influences. Notice in my post where I specified that Masters such as Jesus DO NOT recruit their disciples from the realms of the astral plane, or from among those with whom drug usage is either habit or familiar pasttime. Such may serve in some capacity as aspirants - but can never become Full Disicples, until these "childish things" are put away ... and nature allowed to heal the wounds of (our) errors.I seek to Love, not hate;
I seek to Serve, and not exact due service;
I seek to heal, not hurt.
In terms of our inability to "induce" REAL religious experience, I fundamentally disagree. Yes, I think it is beyond the power of ANY person to simply snap his or her fingers and "get G-d's attention" ... AS IF that's what it was all about. Nor are most people skilled at going into deepest trance. But the four yogic states of consciousness to which George Harrison referred - Jagrat, Svapna, Sushupti and Turiya - are objective, and can be entered by those who are properly trained. It TAKES a Masters to TRAIN a Master. This has EVER been the rule.Thomas said:
Appeal to "God in the Highest," if you like - for example of such a Master, but be careful where you draw the line. I do understand that many Christians choose not to recognize other fully capable Masters besides Christ Jesus. That is a choice and an option available to the Christian, just as the Sikh, the Brahmin, the Sufi, or the Buddhist bhikku makes his own choice ... as to which Master to acknowledge, and Serve and follow.
NOT ONCE in my post did I suggest that drug usage was advisable. I did not advocate this, nor even suggest it. Nor did anyone else. And I would certainly appreciate it if you would refrain from any attempt to either discredit my own (or anyone else's) prior experiences ... both those where drug usage was a factor, and (especially) those where it wasn't.
Many thanks,
taijasi
Dondi
Well-Known Member
taijasi said:
Of course, you realize that the majority of Christians believe Jesus to be God in the Flesh as the only begotten Son of God, and therefore is the only "Master" with which they have to do. Even if there are other "Masters", to quote the cliche, "Why go anywhere else?" To have Jesus as a master, teacher, guide, etc. is about as high as you are gonna get.
Besides, one ought to stick with whom one knows. Since Christians are intimately familiar with Jesus' teachings about love, mercy, and forgiveness, it is a safe straw to draw from.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Originally Posted by taijasi:
Appeal to "God in the Highest," if you like - for example of such a Master, but be careful where you draw the line. I do understand that many Christians choose not to recognize other fully capable Masters besides Christ Jesus. That is a choice and an option available to the Christian, just as the Sikh, the Brahmin, the Sufi, or the Buddhist bhikku makes his own choice ... as to which Master to acknowledge, and Serve and follow.
While on the Christian forum, I think context is important enough and should not be forgotten. But let's also not forget that people around the world experience everything from ESP, telepathy, PK, out-of-body experiences and so forth ("lesser" gifts, or psychic experiences) ... to Love, discernment, healing, and all the rest of the various "Greater" Gifts of the Spirit. Christians have one way for understanding this, just as the focus has been on Christ Jesus as the ultimate authority on such things.
To be secure in one's faith, and comfortable with one's own understanding of things - and with the answers that one gets from one's pastor/priest/minister, as well as scriptural sources and commentary - THAT's what's really important, I think. However, in our quest for understanding there is nothing wrong whatsoever with investigating what other religions, investigators or authorities have to say on psychic abilities and their higher, Spiritual correspondences (lower and higher `Siddhis,' as the Sanskrit refers to them). Thus the great value of forums like CR, and the community of those who have had various of the experiences described on this thread.
Namaskar,
taijasi
Appeal to "God in the Highest," if you like - for example of such a Master, but be careful where you draw the line. I do understand that many Christians choose not to recognize other fully capable Masters besides Christ Jesus. That is a choice and an option available to the Christian, just as the Sikh, the Brahmin, the Sufi, or the Buddhist bhikku makes his own choice ... as to which Master to acknowledge, and Serve and follow.
Yes, Dondi. I entered the caveat explicity because this is the Christian forum. But keep in mind, Christians aren't the only ones who believe in Jesus as a spiritual Master. NOR does one have to be a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Muslim, wherein St. Issa is recognized - yet viewed as one of many. As an esotericist, it is up to me to learn to distinguish between the various Masters ... but it would be quite presumptuous for me to INFORM you that "you should believe in" or "direct your attention to" another Master than Christed Jesus. And it is EQUALLY presumptuous and absurd for a Christian to suggest to a non-Christian that Jesus is the only or highest Master, or that `Gifts of the Spirit' is something that applies only to Christians.Dondi said:
While on the Christian forum, I think context is important enough and should not be forgotten. But let's also not forget that people around the world experience everything from ESP, telepathy, PK, out-of-body experiences and so forth ("lesser" gifts, or psychic experiences) ... to Love, discernment, healing, and all the rest of the various "Greater" Gifts of the Spirit. Christians have one way for understanding this, just as the focus has been on Christ Jesus as the ultimate authority on such things.
To be secure in one's faith, and comfortable with one's own understanding of things - and with the answers that one gets from one's pastor/priest/minister, as well as scriptural sources and commentary - THAT's what's really important, I think. However, in our quest for understanding there is nothing wrong whatsoever with investigating what other religions, investigators or authorities have to say on psychic abilities and their higher, Spiritual correspondences (lower and higher `Siddhis,' as the Sanskrit refers to them). Thus the great value of forums like CR, and the community of those who have had various of the experiences described on this thread.
Namaskar,
taijasi