Can a Christian kill?

[kenod]

i am not saying that policemen are not doing a good job of protecting the inocent, and of cause JW apprieciate the police

So you appreciate the fact that there are men who are trained in physical combat, and the use of lethal weapons, to help protect you and your family. And these brave men who protect you and your family, can they be "true Christians" and still carry out their duty as "God's servants"?

Romans 13:4
For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

​

 

[mee]

So you appreciate the fact that there are men who are trained in physical combat, and the use of lethal weapons, to help protect you and your family. And these brave men who protect you and your family, can they be "true Christians" and still carry out their duty as "God's servants"?

Romans 13:4
For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.



​

the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. he is allowing man to rule himself , and as christians we should respect the laws of the land that we live in .
True Christians cannot surrender their "entire person" to a human government, since they have vowed absolute allegiance to Jehovah God alone
Jehovah’s Witnesses strive to be law-abiding, peaceful, and morally upright people. They do not oppose governments or seek confrontations with them, nor do they provoke persecution because they want to be martyrs. These Christians are politically neutral. This is in harmony with Jesus’ words: "[My followers] are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." (John 17:16) Most governments acknowledge the Witnesses’ neutral stand. But totalitarian rulers have little respect for the Biblical requirement that Christians should be no part of the world.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

some may believe that only a true christian are those they never put their life down for their fellow man. some may believe that they will get their reward for letting their innocent neighbor be overtaken, while one sits passive. the rest that take the high ground, and fight for godly morals and ethics, and a more peaceful world are somehow out of luck in their world of receiving an equally just reward. in some countries, witnessing a crime without acting is a crime in itself, and in the hearts of many of us it rings the same.

 

[mee]

some may believe that only a true christian are those they never put their life down for their fellow man. some may believe that they will get their reward for letting their innocent neighbor be overtaken, while one sits passive. the rest that take the high ground, and fight for godly morals and ethics, and a more peaceful world are somehow out of luck in their world of receiving an equally just reward. in some countries, witnessing a crime without acting is a crime in itself, and in the hearts of many of us it rings the same.

this thread is about can a christian kill , i dont think he could or would want to kill anyone , because he would be trying to be a peacemaker .
Happy are the peaceable,
Lit., "peacemakers." Gr., ei·re·no·poi·oi´.
since they will be called ‘sons of God. matthew 5;9
(Romans 12:18) If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

being a peacemaker does encompass extinguishing an evil or ruthless power. case in point, the mass killings of innocent jews by the nazis. america had to step in and kill many germans because of the wrong to humanity hitler was doing. american soldiers, many being christian, had to kill, not senseless murder, but to bring peace instead of the holocaust thru military might and a higher road.

 

[Quahom1]

this thread is about can a christian kill , i dont think he could or would want to kill anyone , because he would be trying to be a peacemaker .
Happy are the peaceable,
Lit., "peacemakers." Gr., ei·re·no·poi·oi´.
since they will be called ‘sons of God. matthew 5;9
(Romans 12:18) If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men.

That is where you are wrong, flat out. A Christian may not want to kill, but he can. There is a difference between a peace maker, and a peace keeper, and one who is ordered to conquer in the name of God. And again, you ignore the obvious, when I point out one of the greatest generals of history being a man of Jehovah, and he did carry out the orders given by Jehovah, which included killing.

Mee, to imply that police are ok, because they make peace, and that is fine for "true Christians", but ignore soldiers because they are designed to "take life" (which is a misnomer), and can't be true Christians is ludicrous. Your argument is that God can step in and handle all wars (true, but He chooses not to for His own good reasons). But God can also step in and negate the need for the police as well...

As pointed out by another, earlier...you express a bias against soldiers, particularly "Christians" who are soldiers. The impression you leave is that there is no such thing as a soldier who is a true Christian.

And the country wonders why the Vietnam vets returning home, never quite got over the war...

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

That is where you are wrong, flat out. A Christian may not want to kill, but he can. There is a difference between a peace maker, and a peace keeper, and one who is ordered to conquer in the name of God. And again, you ignore the obvious, when I point out one of the greatest generals of history being a man of Jehovah, and he did carry out the orders given by Jehovah, which included killing.

Mee, to imply that police are ok, because they make peace, and that is fine for "true Christians", but ignore soldiers because they are designed to "take life" (which is a misnomer), and can't be true Christians is ludicrous. Your argument is that God can step in and handle all wars (true, but He chooses not to for His own good reasons). But God can also step in and negate the need for the police as well...

As pointed out by another, earlier...you express a bias against soldiers, particularly "Christians" who are soldiers. The impression you leave is that there is no such thing as a soldier who is a true Christian.

And the country wonders why the Vietnam vets returning home, never quite got over the war...

v/r

Q

Early Christians refused to serve in the Roman army,
no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service. we all have to live our lives according to our bible trained concience. no one tells us what to do we act on our bible trained concience.

 

[Saltmeister]

........
As pointed out by another, earlier...you express a bias against soldiers, particularly "Christians" who are soldiers. The impression you leave is that there is no such thing as a soldier who is a true Christian.

And the country wonders why the Vietnam vets returning home, never quite got over the war...

Early Christians refused to serve in the Roman army,
no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service. we all have to live our lives according to our bible trained concience. no one tells us what to do we act on our bible trained concience.

Perhaps the way it should be seen is that we must answer to both God and Man. We must answer to God because He is all-knowing, but yet we must answer to Man because he is not all-knowing.

Just because we have (or think and claim to have) a personal connection with God and are intimate with God doesn't mean we should do as we please, without regard for what others think. We would otherwise be doing what others think is immoral, irrational, illogical, senseless, nonsensical, ridiculous, despicable and inexplicable. It may even be true that what we are doing is inexplicable. That's because we haven't explained ourselves. The idea that one will never join the army, never serve as a soldier, never give one's life to serve and protect a nation, may well seem like the most ridiculous act non-Christians can imagine. If a Christian hasn't thought this through seriously enough, our non-Christian peers may well be right -- this view cannot be justified.

If we can't explain ourselves, then perhaps there really is no explanation for our behaviour. Our behaviour and beliefs can't be justified. This is where false spirituality begins. It is a feeling that one understands the universe and the cosmos better than certain other people, but a view that cannot be justified. Those who see us as senseless, reckless and driven by nonsensical imaginations when we think like that may well be right -- we really can't justify that kind of reasoning. If our reasoning doesn't work, then maybe we haven't spent enough time and effort thinking it through. Perhaps we should change the way we see things.

Christians can fall for the trap of being "copy cats." That is, you adopt a view or belief that other Christians have without realising that the issue is a lot more complex. There is a temptation to conform and do what others do. There is a tendency to think that what others think is the right thing for you to think as well. Furthermore, just because of something others think is wrong, doesn't mean it's wrong for you too.

This is the trouble with thinking that there is a set of rules that applies to everyone.

The idea that no Christian can ever serve in the army because of moral qualms is a bit extreme and radical. Serving in the army is not inherently wrong if you think about it. You may, perhaps, join the army for a very short time in order to accomplish a small objective that is part of some greater, altruistic purpose. Who can judge you and say that you went in there because you wanted some bloodshed? Only God would know your real intentions.

Just because of what we think is right, doesn't mean we should confuse people by doing and thinking the bizarre and extraordinary. Political correctness is still on the Christian agenda -- the duty to make Christianity properly known and understood.

 

[mee]

being a peacemaker does encompass extinguishing an evil or ruthless power. case in point, the mass killings of innocent jews by the nazis. america had to step in and kill many germans because of the wrong to humanity hitler was doing. american soldiers, many being christian, had to kill, not senseless murder, but to bring peace instead of the holocaust thru military might and a higher road.

and killing goes on ...... no real peace at all ....only the prince of peace can do that Isaiah 9;6-7

 

[mee]

Perhaps the way it should be seen is that we must answer to both God and Man. We must answer to God because He is all-knowing, but yet we must answer to Man because he is not all-knowing.

Just because we have (or think and claim to have) a personal connection with God and are intimate with God doesn't mean we should do as we please, without regard for what others think. We would otherwise be doing what others think is immoral, irrational, illogical, senseless, nonsensical, ridiculous, despicable and inexplicable. It may even be true that what we are doing is inexplicable. That's because we haven't explained ourselves. The idea that one will never join the army, never serve as a soldier, never give one's life to serve and protect a nation, may well seem like the most ridiculous act non-Christians can imagine. If a Christian hasn't thought this through seriously enough, our non-Christian peers may well be right -- this view cannot be justified.

If we can't explain ourselves, then perhaps there really is no explanation for our behaviour. Our behaviour and beliefs can't be justified. This is where false spirituality begins. It is a feeling that one understands the universe and the cosmos better than certain other people, but a view that cannot be justified. Those who see us as senseless, reckless and driven by nonsensical imaginations when we think like that may well be right -- we really can't justify that kind of reasoning. If our reasoning doesn't work, then maybe we haven't spent enough time and effort thinking it through. Perhaps we should change the way we see things.

Christians can fall for the trap of being "copy cats." That is, you adopt a view or belief that other Christians have without realising that the issue is a lot more complex. There is a temptation to conform and do what others do. There is a tendency to think that what others think is the right thing for you to think as well. Furthermore, just because of something others think is wrong, doesn't mean it's wrong for you too.

This is the trouble with thinking that there is a set of rules that applies to everyone.

The idea that no Christian can ever serve in the army because of moral qualms is a bit extreme and radical. Serving in the army is not inherently wrong if you think about it. You may, perhaps, join the army for a very short time in order to accomplish a small objective that is part of some greater, altruistic purpose. Who can judge you and say that you went in there because you wanted some bloodshed? Only God would know your real intentions.

Just because of what we think is right, doesn't mean we should confuse people by doing and thinking the bizarre and extraordinary. Political correctness is still on the Christian agenda -- the duty to make Christianity properly known and understood.

What​

scriptures have always had a bearing on the attitude of true Christians toward participation in carnal warfare?

Matt. 26:52: "Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’" (Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.)​

Isa. 2:2-4: "It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains . . . And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." (Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded Jehovah’s judgment give evidence that he is their God.)
2 Cor. 10:3, 4: "Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things." (Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.)
Luke 6:27, 28: "I [Jesus Christ] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you."

 

[BlaznFattyz]

and killing goes on ...... no real peace at all ....only the prince of peace can do that Isaiah 9;6-7

Vengeance is the Lord's. His holy judgement will destroy the wicked. man cannot preserve peace or create a real peace, christians know it is not possible, but we have to act to keep the world as safe and peaceable as humanly possible. those that have the power to help but choose to ignore the well-being of innocent and peaceful people are guilty of doing nothing, of looking the other way, of ignoring pleads for help from the helpless.

 

[kenod]

What Scriptures have always had a bearing on the attitude of true Christians toward participation in carnal warfare?


Matt. 26:52: "Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’" (Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.)

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:49
When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?

John 18:11
Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? (This is the explanation for Mat 26:52 ... Jesus knew that He had to be killed.)

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 

[Quahom1]

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:49
When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?

John 18:11
Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? (This is the explanation for Mat 26:52 ... Jesus knew that He had to be killed.)

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Thanks. I'm glad someone else saw what I saw in the Bible, concerning the "respect" and "honor" God has for police and military. But coming from me would not have the impact, you see...

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

Thanks. I'm glad someone else saw what I saw in the Bible, concerning the "respect" and "honor" God has for police and military. But coming from me would not have the impact, you see...

v/r

Q

yes christians should have respect for the laws of the land they live in .

 

[Excaliburton]

The 10 Commandments do not forbid killing but murder. Phinehas was actually praised by God for killing the fornicators.

 

[mee]

Vengeance is the Lord's. His holy judgement will destroy the wicked. man cannot preserve peace or create a real peace, christians know it is not possible, but we have to act to keep the world as safe and peaceable as humanly possible. those that have the power to help but choose to ignore the well-being of innocent and peaceful people are guilty of doing nothing, of looking the other way, of ignoring pleads for help from the helpless.

yes ,as you say we have to act by listening to Jesus and not be a part of the world and its bad ways of killing,we only have to love . love is the surpassing way

 

[mee]

Thanks. I'm glad someone else saw what I saw in the Bible, concerning the "respect" and "honor" God has for police and military. But coming from me would not have the impact, you see...

v/r

Q

yes christians should always respect those in aurthority it is Gods way . a christian would always try their best to go along with aurthority. unless of cause they told them to break the rules of God ,then a christian would have to put Gods laws before mans laws.
Because he is the All-wise and Almighty God, what he says merits the utmost respect and attention.
"We must obey God as ruler rather than men."—ACTS 5:29.

 

[mee]

The 10 Commandments do not forbid killing but murder. Phinehas was actually praised by God for killing the fornicators.

Jesus brought in the new commandment of love God and love your neighbour. so christians should now listen to Jesus . he is the prince of peace. love is the surpassing way.

 

[mee]

Refusing to go to war did not make things easy for the early Christians. It went against the accepted beliefs of the day. Celsus, an enemy of Christianity, mocked their position. His belief was that everyone should go to war when those in power demanded it. Despite immense hostility, early Christians refused to follow any human philosophy that contradicted the teachings of Christ. "We must obey God as ruler rather than men," they said.—Acts 4:19; 5:29.

 

[mee]

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:49
When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?

John 18:11
Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? (This is the explanation for Mat 26:52 ... Jesus knew that He had to be killed.)

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Can we imagine the apostles, or Jesus, preaching the superior law of love and at the same time carrying on their activity armed with swords and lances?​

The only reported occasion when Jesus’ followers had weapons was before receiving the holy spirit at Pentecost. This was on the Mount of Olives. Why did they have weapons here? Because Jesus had told them to! (Luke 22:36-38) Why? So Jesus could demonstrate powerfully that, had he desired to resort to carnal weapons for self-defense, he could have. But he did not! Rather, he reprimanded the one who used his weapon, saying: "All those who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matt. 26:51, 52) so, among other things, Jesus showed he would not seek protection by means of such deadly weapons. It is as Paul later said: "The weapons of our warfare are not fleshly."—2 Cor. 10:4.