seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Hey, although the universe is full of surprises, we can work it out.juantoo3 said:
The Rush To Be Right
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cyberpi
Guest
There is faith in questioning a teacher. It is a lack of faith to imagine the heart of one.
Open rebuke is better than secret love. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke. He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue. (plagiarized verses)
All logic, math, and science are symbolic. At best every equality is a partial truth requiring a limited and undefined scope, either with ignorance or by overlooking a detail. An equality with any truth has at least one symbol with an undefined or imprecisely defined boundary. In the imagination absolute equalities are easily made. In the observable physical world absolute equalities never exist. Thus every word is a truth. A 6-sigma liar speaks a truth with every word. So, if and when determinism is dead in your mind, then re-evalute what right and wrong mean. A question and a rebuke are far more valuable than any imagination, and that is not an equality.
Open rebuke is better than secret love. Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke. He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue. (plagiarized verses)
All logic, math, and science are symbolic. At best every equality is a partial truth requiring a limited and undefined scope, either with ignorance or by overlooking a detail. An equality with any truth has at least one symbol with an undefined or imprecisely defined boundary. In the imagination absolute equalities are easily made. In the observable physical world absolute equalities never exist. Thus every word is a truth. A 6-sigma liar speaks a truth with every word. So, if and when determinism is dead in your mind, then re-evalute what right and wrong mean. A question and a rebuke are far more valuable than any imagination, and that is not an equality.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
The Uncertainty Principle, again?cyberpi said:All logic, math, and science are symbolic. At best every equality is a partial truth requiring a limited and undefined scope, either with ignorance or by overlooking a detail. An equality with any truth has at least one symbol with an undefined or imprecisely defined boundary. In the imagination absolute equalities are easily made. In the observable physical world absolute equalities never exist. Thus every word is a truth. A 6-sigma liar speaks a truth with every word. So, if and when determinism is dead in your mind, then re-evalute what right and wrong mean. A question and a rebuke are far more valuable than any imagination, and that is not an equality.
- What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning.--Werner Heisenberg
seattlegal said:
Didn't he prove that an atom can not be observed from two perspecives at the same time? Ergo, we can observe where it is, but not what it is doing, or we can observe what it is doing but not where it is, in relation to all other atoms...?
cyberpi said:
Symbolic in explaining actual initiations of those particular actions the logic and math are attempting to describe. If the formulae are true, then the actions will prove out the math and logic. If the formulae are false, the actions (or inert response) will prove false the math and logic.
I suppose the same could be said of vocal language, as well as gesturing...
What we don't know, is what the result will be until it is tested...
v/r
Q
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
flowperson
Oannes
Interesting little website Seattle. I found it interesting that it did not mention quantum complimentarity. I believe that this is a feature of the wave/particlel duality issue, wherein as we observe a particle in space and time and thereby" fix" it in our reality this action also instantly affects the position of the "twin" of that particle wherever it might be in space and time, possibly in the house next door, light years away, or on the other side of the universe.
This may have something to do with the "matter-anti matter" thingy, or possibly the "handedness" orientations of the building blocks of matter. Very interesting and spooky stuff. Others call this the "local-non-local" nature of quantum physics. Very uncertain , but IMO, likely one of G-d's major tool sets. It's also the theoretical basis for teleportation theory ( yes it's really being done with single atoms these days) and food for such great stories as the Stargate movies and TV episodes.
flow....
This may have something to do with the "matter-anti matter" thingy, or possibly the "handedness" orientations of the building blocks of matter. Very interesting and spooky stuff. Others call this the "local-non-local" nature of quantum physics. Very uncertain , but IMO, likely one of G-d's major tool sets. It's also the theoretical basis for teleportation theory ( yes it's really being done with single atoms these days) and food for such great stories as the Stargate movies and TV episodes.
flow....
flowperson
Oannes
Hi Q:
IMHO, theories of religion, spirituality, quantum physics, and cosmology are unified at some point in the universe, or outside of it. Call this G-d if you wish, but that's my thought on the matter. Think of G-d as an ultimate singularity. There is most certainly G-d because all of the component features of the universe intertwine and just seem to work so well together
It also has to do with the curious phenomenon that G-d seems to be immanent within us and also within all other features of the material universe that we are able to see and understand. I'm not saying this is "right" but this is a conclusion that I have been led to over the years. I am the "clay" and the "potter" made me into this "form of knowing" ...just paraphrasing something a wise person said elsewhere on this forum.
flow...
IMHO, theories of religion, spirituality, quantum physics, and cosmology are unified at some point in the universe, or outside of it. Call this G-d if you wish, but that's my thought on the matter. Think of G-d as an ultimate singularity. There is most certainly G-d because all of the component features of the universe intertwine and just seem to work so well together
It also has to do with the curious phenomenon that G-d seems to be immanent within us and also within all other features of the material universe that we are able to see and understand. I'm not saying this is "right" but this is a conclusion that I have been led to over the years. I am the "clay" and the "potter" made me into this "form of knowing" ...just paraphrasing something a wise person said elsewhere on this forum.
flow...
flowperson said:Hi Q:
IMHO, theories of religion, spirituality, quantum physics, and cosmology are unified at some point in the universe, or outside of it. Call this G-d if you wish, but that's my thought on the matter. Think of G-d as an ultimate singularity. There is most certainly G-d because all of the component features of the universe intertwine and just seem to work so well together
It also has to do with the curious phenomenon that G-d seems to be immanent within us and also within all other features of the material universe that we are able to see and understand. I'm not saying this is "right" but this is a conclusion that I have been led to over the years. I am the "clay" and the "potter" made me into this "form of knowing" ...just paraphrasing something a wise person said elsewhere on this forum.
flow...
Well, here is where we differ. Math is a tool...God is not.
though we might be...flowperson
Oannes
Hi again Q:
No I didn't say that G-d is a tool, I said that the elements of the universe comprise a tool set for G-d to use in Creation activities.
I certainly agree that most of us are tools, at least I know that I am much of the time.
My understanding of the ultimate purpose of math is that it is a symbolic system that is logic-based and allows humans, through its utilization as a tool of exploration, to theoretically access and describe universal realities that we cannot observe or directly access. I tend to think of it as a method of drawing pictures in the void of darkness. But, then again, one can also use math to compose novel forms of music.
flow....
No I didn't say that G-d is a tool, I said that the elements of the universe comprise a tool set for G-d to use in Creation activities.
I certainly agree that most of us are tools, at least I know that I am much of the time.
My understanding of the ultimate purpose of math is that it is a symbolic system that is logic-based and allows humans, through its utilization as a tool of exploration, to theoretically access and describe universal realities that we cannot observe or directly access. I tend to think of it as a method of drawing pictures in the void of darkness. But, then again, one can also use math to compose novel forms of music.
flow....
flowperson said:... But, then again, one can also use math to compose novel forms of music.
flow....
Indeed. Music is math set to frequency portrayed by sound, through a gaseous envelope, in which a "receiver" is designed to register and transmit to a "processor" owned by an intelligent "being", that may or may not appreciate the meaning of...
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Isn't that the opposite of Uncertainty?Quahom1 said:
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards!
*Curiosity may have killed the cat, Schrödinger only killed half of it.* -(thanks Wikipedia!)
So, in the rush to be right, it depends who is paying attention???
Isn't this where Schrödinger's cat makes his entrance (or not)? Or maybe, or kinda, or it depends on whether or not you're actually paying attention...seattlegal said:
*Curiosity may have killed the cat, Schrödinger only killed half of it.* -(thanks Wikipedia!)
So, in the rush to be right, it depends who is paying attention???
flowperson
Oannes
IMHO, observation is at least 50% of reality ( with all due respect to Herr Schrodinger).
And here's the real riddle in all of this. If we watch TV or play video games for hours a day, what might observing so much "simulated reality" be doing to our ability to discern the real from the artificial in the world around us ?
I believe that's why, as I ripen onto my later years, I'm so driven to somehow commune with nature more often, and why commercials selling us stuff to somehow "escape" are so effective. But like most people I'm trapped in a large urban area with multiresponsibilities to keep me here with my nose to the stone instead of out hugging the trees where I think I should be. Kind of like the entrapment scenario described in Bobby Winter's latest essay about mowing lawns.
ARRRRGGGHHHH !
(not the essay Bobby...the concept of involuntary entrapment)
flow....
And here's the real riddle in all of this. If we watch TV or play video games for hours a day, what might observing so much "simulated reality" be doing to our ability to discern the real from the artificial in the world around us ?
I believe that's why, as I ripen onto my later years, I'm so driven to somehow commune with nature more often, and why commercials selling us stuff to somehow "escape" are so effective. But like most people I'm trapped in a large urban area with multiresponsibilities to keep me here with my nose to the stone instead of out hugging the trees where I think I should be. Kind of like the entrapment scenario described in Bobby Winter's latest essay about mowing lawns.
ARRRRGGGHHHH !
(not the essay Bobby...the concept of involuntary entrapment)
flow....
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Flo!
I might add, it seems to me our innate desires change as we "mature." Acid Rock gives way to Smooth Jazz.
Ah...believe half of what you see, some or none of what you hear...flowperson said:
Oh dear, you wouldn't be alluding to that liberal third rail buggaboo: censorship?
Might I pose a different possibility? Perhaps commercials selling stuff to escape are so effective on people like yourself because you have an innate desire to commune with nature. (Ergo, such commercials would not be as effective on someone who did not have that innate desire, but rather a different innate desire. Vanity, perhaps, or a longing to "fit in," or raw sex, or any of a host of other possibilities.) This is called "targeting" your audience.
I might add, it seems to me our innate desires change as we "mature." Acid Rock gives way to Smooth Jazz.
Yeah, Okie's great for human observations like that! Of course I am reminded, "the rat race is over...the rats won."
flowperson
Oannes
Hi Juan:
No, censorship wasn't the issue behind my comment. IMHO, if we increasingly take our knowledge cues from observing artificiality such as the fare in commercial film, TV programming, and video games, how are our innate powers of discernment likely affected ? I believe this leads to confusion and that great curse that we have been so presciently warned of by the S. Asian cultures, maya.
BTW, this phenomenon, of confusing reality with the artificial really began in the 60's with the JFK, RFK, and MLK assassinations. Of course the explosion of conspiracy theories regarding the 9/11 tragedy is the latest iteration of this disease.
I'm not a consumer of escapism stuff. I tend to do most of my escaping inside of my head...but then...I'm a legend in my own mind !!
Never did the acid rock thing, but I still groove on Blues, Jazz, and Reggae. (Jah Rules !) Smooth Jazz reminds me of warm homoginized whole milk. It goes down easily enough, but will likely lead to a sour stomach later if you consume too much
Enjoy your day....flow
No, censorship wasn't the issue behind my comment. IMHO, if we increasingly take our knowledge cues from observing artificiality such as the fare in commercial film, TV programming, and video games, how are our innate powers of discernment likely affected ? I believe this leads to confusion and that great curse that we have been so presciently warned of by the S. Asian cultures, maya.
BTW, this phenomenon, of confusing reality with the artificial really began in the 60's with the JFK, RFK, and MLK assassinations. Of course the explosion of conspiracy theories regarding the 9/11 tragedy is the latest iteration of this disease.
I'm not a consumer of escapism stuff. I tend to do most of my escaping inside of my head...but then...I'm a legend in my own mind !!
Never did the acid rock thing, but I still groove on Blues, Jazz, and Reggae. (Jah Rules !) Smooth Jazz reminds me of warm homoginized whole milk. It goes down easily enough, but will likely lead to a sour stomach later if you consume too much
Enjoy your day....flow
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Flo!
I can grant that a particular type of this confusion became apparent with the advent of popular television, from the late '40's onward. When I was a young kid, 10 or 11, I knew a woman who was convinced that if it was on t.v., it was real. This, in the context of "Seahunt." Great show, but obviously fictional, even to me as a kid. This lady though thought otherwise, and try as I might I couldn't convince her. Afterall, I was "just a kid." What did I know?
Just wanted to be certain, 'cause if a conservative raises the exact same issue, the battle cry immediately goes out among the liberals: "CENSORSHIP! CENSORSHIP! Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!!!"flowperson said:
I agree. Yet, I tire of the knee-jerk reaction from the left about censorship on this issue. It is a strawman, I feel designed to avoid the issue, and it seems promugated primarily from the liberal media industrial complex.
I'm afraid this is a little out of my line of understanding, although I have had this term cross my path. I would be interested to hear you expand on this.
I'm not ready to surrender this to such a recent period of time. I think humanity has a tendency to conflate the real with the imagined, particularly if they are not first hand witness and participant in a specific event. This could have implications even to religious texts such as the Bible, but dates even into the period of the cave paintings. In a way, I guess, it is synonymous with confusing the messenger with the message.
I can grant that a particular type of this confusion became apparent with the advent of popular television, from the late '40's onward. When I was a young kid, 10 or 11, I knew a woman who was convinced that if it was on t.v., it was real. This, in the context of "Seahunt." Great show, but obviously fictional, even to me as a kid. This lady though thought otherwise, and try as I might I couldn't convince her. Afterall, I was "just a kid." What did I know?
And we love you here just the same. You do not have to be a "consumer" of escapism stuff. An awful lot of the stuff in advertising works subliminally, just beyond conscious thought. Using Freudian terms, it works on the Id.I'm not a consumer of escapism stuff. I tend to do most of my escaping inside of my head...but then...I'm a legend in my own mind !!
I can deal. Aerosmith (the original, like "Dream On" and "Seasons of Wither") is probably about as Acid as I got. I was more into the "Sophisto" stuff, Supertramp still a fave. Kansas, ELO, Yes, Styx.
I still agree, but more and more that warm milk goes down better and better. Perish the thought, but it seems to be...