wy do people think jesus was god

[17th Angel]

It is very easy Cage or JosephM or Wil or anyone.
Can you raise the dead?
Can you forgive sins?
Did you create everything?
Can you heal the blind, the sick?
Cast out demons, turn water to wine?
among many other things?

No and Jesus could not have either if he was just a man!

your "satan" can raise the dead... He could forgive sins he can heal he can cast out demons or turn water to wine he could make a rainbow shine out of his rear end... he could turn your nose purple... Is he your god?

"What we think, we become."

 

[Dor]

Actually Dor,

If you are born of the spirit you are no only man but also a son of God.
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

And if you realized your authority in God you could at least forgive sins, heal the blind and sick, cast out demons and raise the dead among other things. These all can be found in your NT as things you can do if you had the faith.
Also read this....
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Love in Christ,
JM

PS It would be nice if you would not be so quick to answer No for other people to questions you asked of other people before they have a chance to answer.

Oh so you think man and God are equal? I have read that. Difference is I read it all in context.

Also there is a little difference between being a son of God and the Son of God. Sorry no one baptises in the name of the Father, John and the Holy Spirit.

 

[JosephM]

Oh so you think man and God are equal? I have read that. Difference is I read it all in context.

Also there is a little difference between being a son of God and the Son of God. Sorry no one baptises in the name of the Father, John and the Holy Spirit.

Ok Dor,

Your original question had to do with miracles not words used in a Baptism. You said "No and Jesus could not have either if he was just a man!"

Before Jesus came on the seen as a man, Elisha was a man and in Kings 4:32-35 he raised the dead.

Paul was a man after Jesus came on the scene and in Acts 20:9-10 he raised the dead.

Read it how you like. There are many other miracles that his disciples and followers as men did but you can read them for yourself.
James 5:17
Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

So Okay Dor, in my view we are according to your definition more than just a man. We are a son of God. If your understanding is different, so be it.

Love in Christ,
JMl

 

[Dor]

Ok Dor,

Your original question had to do with miracles not words used in a Baptism. You said "No and Jesus could not have either if he was just a man!"

Before Jesus came on the seen as a man, Elisha was a man and in Kings 4:32-35 he raised the dead.

Paul was a man after Jesus came on the scene and in Acts 20:9-10 he raised the dead.

Read it how you like. There are many other miracles that his disciples and followers as men did but you can read them for yourself.
James 5:17
Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

So Okay Dor, in my view we are according to your definition more than just a man. We are a son of God. If your understanding is different, so be it.

Love in Christ,
JMl

Yes so did Peter and Elijah. They did not do it cause they decided to though it was caused God decided to.

Jesus was a tad different in he said He gives life to whom he will.

Yes if God decides I should raise the dead or heal my wife then I can surely do it. I can not do it just cause I decide I want to.

 

[17th Angel]

Yes if God decides I should raise the dead or heal my wife then I can surely do it. I can not do it just cause I decide I want to.

You never know... There are some "spooky" stories out there Dor..

 

[JosephM]

Yes so did Peter and Elijah. They did not do it cause they decided to though it was caused God decided to.

Jesus was a tad different in he said He gives life to whom he will.

Yes if God decides I should raise the dead or heal my wife then I can surely do it. I can not do it just cause I decide I want to.

Hi Dor,

I'll buy that. Makes sense to me but neither did Jesus do it just because he wanted to. He did what the Father showed him and was obedient to the Father's wishes. He made his will the Fathers will which is not all that different than what you can do.

John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Just some writings for you to consider.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Dor]

John5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Ok I want to toss out a counter question.
Why do people think Jesus was just a man?

 

[JosephM]

John5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Ok I want to toss out a counter question.
Why do people think Jesus was just a man?

Good pick Dor,

That writing 'seems' in a small way to discredit the ones I mentioned but when taken in context we must remember that Jesus's goal was "not my will, but thy will be done". He had a difficult time with that in the garden but came out victorious. So 5:21 must be taken in the context that the Son does the Fathers will as there is no difference. The flesh man does his own will and cannot quicken the dead. But you are spirit man if God's spirit so dwells in you. So it wasn'rt a matter of Jesus healing at his own want but rather doing the works he was directed to by the Father. One spirit, One will.

Hope this helps,
JM

Now for your question. Why do people think that Jesus was just a man?
* He said so many times when it was demanded of him that he was the Son of man.
* He was tempted in all points as we are.
* He had a physical body and grew tired and weary as we do.
* He was without contradiction born of a woman a man child.
* He referred to himself many times as the Son of God and spoke to God as if he were talking to another as a man would.
If you are led by the spirit of God then Jesus also considered you a son of God. ("Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect") Jesus must then be our brother.
* If Jesus were God, it would be nothing for him to do what he did. An all present and powerful God could not be hurt nor tempted. (" god cannot be tempted nor does he tempt any man") Jesus was tempted.
* etc etc etc

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Dor]

So you think he was just a man but yet.

He is worshiped.
He was called God
He was called Son of God
He is prayed to
He is sinless
He knows all things
He gives eternal life
All the fullness of deity dwells in Him
He was there before the world was
He descended from Heaven
He is omnipresent.

 

[JosephM]

So you think he was just a man but yet.

He is worshiped.

Many people have been worshiped, that doesn't make them God. After ministering to some South Africans, they prostrated themselves as in worship and that doesn't make me God. They were only honoring the divinity that is within us. When called good Jesus said " why do you call me good, there is none good but the Father"

He was called God

Please give me the specific writings to address.

He was called Son of God

He called us children of God and God our Father. Paul called us sons of God. That doesn't make Jesus more than a man

He is prayed to

People pray to Mary and various saints. Does that make them God. A prayer is a request. I have had many people request from me. Does that make me God?

He is sinless

In the present tense I am sinless because of forgiveness. God sees me as sinless but does that make me God?

He knows all things

Jesus didn't know all things. It says he grew and waxed strong in wisdom and knowledge. If he knew all things there would be no need to grow. How could he have been tempted if he knew all things. Some things were hid from his eyes.

All the fullness of deity dwells in Him

All the fulness can dwell in you. Col. 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Ephes. 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

He was there before the world was

So were you as a thought in the mind of God.

He descended from Heaven

I remember reading man (descended) fell from heaven also.

He is omnipresent.

God is but where does it say the man Jesus is?

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Faithfulservant]

Many people have been worshiped, that doesn't make them God. After ministering to some South Africans, they prostrated themselves as in worship and that doesn't make me God. They were only honoring the divinity that is within us. When called good Jesus said " why do you call me good, there is none good but the Father"




Please give me the specific writings to address.


He called us children of God and God our Father. Paul called us sons of God. That doesn't make Jesus more than a man


People pray to Mary and various saints. Does that make them God. A prayer is a request. I have had many people request from me. Does that make me God?


In the present tense I am sinless because of forgiveness. God sees me as sinless but does that make me God?


Jesus didn't know all things. It says he grew and waxed strong in wisdom and knowledge. If he knew all things there would be no need to grow. How could he have been tempted if he knew all things. Some things were hid from his eyes.

All the fulness can dwell in you. Col. 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Ephes. 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


So were you as a thought in the mind of God.


I remember reading man (descended) fell from heaven also.


God is but where does it say the man Jesus is?

Love in Christ,
JM

You are deceived..but many are. Read the entire story and not bits and pieces to get the complete picture. by denying that Jesus is God manifest merciful and granting grace on His creation.. you are denying what He did on the cross.. and taking it one step further you are missing your right to claim salvation.

My bible says that Jesus is God who put on flesh.. was born.. established His kingdom in the hearts of men.. and died and rose again.. ascended to heaven and will return to establish His kingdom on earth where He will reign forever and ever..

My bible says You have a choice you either declare Him Lord aknowledge Him as your only means of salvation and repent of your sins ... or not... theres nothing else...

 

[JosephM]

You are deceived..but many are. Read the entire story and not bits and pieces to get the complete picture. by denying that Jesus is God manifest merciful and granting grace on His creation.. you are denying what He did on the cross.. and taking it one step further you are missing your right to claim salvation.

My bible says that Jesus is God who put on flesh.. was born.. established His kingdom in the hearts of men.. and died and rose again.. ascended to heaven and will return to establish His kingdom on earth where He will reign forever and ever..

My bible says You have a choice you either declare Him Lord aknowledge Him as your only means of salvation and repent of your sins ... or not... theres nothing else...

Thanks for your response Faithfulservant,

Perhaps it would be good if you left judgemnet to God on whether I am deceived or not since you are his faithful servant and he has not spoken to you on this matter. Fortunately, I do not need or require any more confirmation on my status than that which was given me. I respect your right to believe that which you choose and my wishes are that you might continue to grow mightly in the knowlege, revelation and understanding of Him who is both your God and mine and beyond the mere understanding of intellect.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Dor]

Please give me the specific writings to address.

John [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]20:28 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.[/FONT]
Hebrews[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:8[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.[/FONT]

He called us children of God and God our Father. Paul called us sons of God. That doesn't make Jesus more than a man

lol there is a slight difference between the Son of God and being an adopted child.

People pray to Mary and various saints. Does that make them God. A prayer is a request. I have had many people request from me. Does that make me God?

Im not sure did you also create the world, know everything, save mankind. etc etc.

In the present tense I am sinless because of forgiveness. God sees me as sinless but does that make me God?

nice but without a twist you can not compare someone forgiven of sin to the one who never had sin in the first place and is the one that forgives.

Jesus didn't know all things. It says he grew and waxed strong in wisdom and knowledge. If he knew all things there would be no need to grow. How could he have been tempted if he knew all things. Some things were hid from his eyes.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John21:17 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.[/FONT]
Yes he knows all and he grew in wisdom and knowledge and he was tempted. He was fully man and fully divine.

All the fulness can dwell in you. Col. 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Ephes. 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Yes Christ can live in our heart.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Colossians2:9 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. All of God was in him.[/FONT]

So were you as a thought in the mind of God.

Thats a stretch to say the least. You say we were thoughts. Jesus was not a thought he was there and created it all.

I remember reading man (descended) fell from heaven also.

As you say show me where.

God is but where does it say the man Jesus is?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew28:20 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.[/FONT]

 

[Faithfulservant]

Thanks for your response Faithfulservant,

Perhaps it would be good if you left judgemnet to God on whether I am deceived or not since you are his faithful servant and he has not spoken to you on this matter. Fortunately, I do not need or require any more confirmation on my status than that which was given me. I respect your right to believe that which you choose and my wishes are that you might continue to grow mightly in the knowlege, revelation and understanding of Him who is both your God and mine and beyond the mere understanding of intellect.

Love in Christ,
JM

Im inspecting fruit and you are teaching apostate doctrine on this forumn and Im calling you on it... Im simply doing what Paul did and calling it like it is.. your teachings are anti-christ and the Lord rebukes them... God does speak to me on these matters... He speaks to me every time I open His word and meditate on it.. He speaks to me everytime I bow my head in prayer.... Maybe you need to pray that He speaks to YOU. Ask Him to reveal ALL truth to you so that you may not believe a lie.. He is just and faithful to answer your prayers.

 

[JosephM]

John [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]20:28 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.[/FONT]
Hebrews[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:8[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.[/FONT]

If you were in the same situation and saw Jesus resurrected you would probably say the same thing. Thomas said it not Jesus.

And in Hebrews, like God is really calling his Son God. Don't forget He previously had said "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased" in the gospels. Now either Jesus is God's Son or he is God. A Son can represent his Father but he is not his father except in spirit. Others can call Jesus God but Jesus says;Luke 4:18-20
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, [19] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
If he were God, he would not need the spirit of God upon him.
If he was sent, then God must have sent him. (He did not say I come as if he were God )
Jesus was plainly a messenger of God. He manifested divinity on earth as can all God's children. Believe as you will. Was he a man or God? If he was both then so are we.

lol there is a slight difference between the Son of God and being an adopted child.

Is that right? I was not aware that God was a respecter of persons. Even a loving parent here on earth treats their adopted child as if it were their own. Is God less loving?

As you say show me where

. If God created you and God is in heaven then you as a living spirit descended from heaven to earth.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[pattimax]

Hi, pattimax...

I don't want to point out specifics, but I have my doubts about the wrath, fierce anger, and jealousy of my God. I must admit that I haven't ventured into the OT much in recent days, and I am a bit biased. What God has shown me is in stark contrast to these attributes, so yes, I have my doubts.

Then, who knows the mind of God? Not me, but I feel like I know the mind of Christ, as he was the Word in which I recieved. Jesus was not a wrathful man, nor was he jealous; he showed anger, but his anger was mild and brief.

If I am to follow him, I must also do my best to be like him, and do as he did, which was spread the Love of God. These are my views, pattimax, and I see no error in Gods Love. I do not attempt to correct a persons error, as Love has the ability to do this on its own. I have my own problems to fix...

So, I am wondering about the 'blade' of the spirit that you say I lack...

Sure, there many spirits mentioned in the Bible, but only one is Holy as far as I can see. Then my sight could be narrow, as I have not willingly embraced other spirits. Am I denying myself the fulness of God? I don't seek to be like God, but like his Son...Meek, humble, gentle, and Loving. This is the Gospel of Christ, and this is what I chose to embrace. I think this is the will of God...that we [mankind] embrace this.

Does this make me foolish, that I choose to see God in such a light? (The same light that I see my savior)

I obviously don't see everything the same way most Christians see them, but does that make me wrong? We all live in some error, pattimax. This is the human condition, but will that error cause me to fail God?


Much Love,

Hey Cage,

The doubts about His wrath might be eliminated if you would grasp the entire Word. His jealousy is completely misunderstood. Your God just loves you so much that He wants to be first in your life. If you are letting things get ahead of your relationship with Him, you might want to step back and survey your priorities. Without listing specifics I can say that Our God is not a wimp and He definitely takes care of his own. His fierce anger cannot be explained.

The Old Testament is the written testimony of the covenant made by God and the “Chosen People” who turned their back on him, but he still loves them and the New Testament is the written testimony of the covenant between Christ and the church which included everybody.

No one knows the mind of God. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. Isaiah 55:8
And the mind of Christ is how a Christian thinks and the heart of Christ is how a Christian loves.

As for error (actually you said opposed to truth, “inerrancy of scripture” is a denominational issue. I want no part of the inerrancy debate. I view the whole thing as ludicrous.) and Spirits versus spirits, I was specifically referring to a conversation you had with Dor and others about the Word of God. I don’t feel like looking for it right now. Besides, it’s not really necessary. But it is there.

The “blade” was a metaphor. (I am so glad I didn’t say what I was going to say, it had to do with motorcycle helmets and no pants.) Guess what? Telling people you love them really pleases God. Don’t stop. Yes, Christ is humble and meek. But he also stands for truth and what is right. Half-truths are dangerous and deceptive. When we pray, we talk to God. If we speak in truth he listens. The answer could very well be “no, I’ve got something better planned.” Have patience. Psalm 27:14. God speaks to us through the entire bible. He would never include half truths, but he does want us to figure them out. If you have regular guidance outside the bible, I am NOT saying that you’re being guided by a spirit other than Jesus, but you need to make sure that it’s God. We were made in His image and we’re fairly intelligent. In other words, a grip with no blade means that the right idea is there but you are not fully protected against the onslaught of things hurled at you and you aren’t very effective in fulfilling the great commission.

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” John 28:16-20

Or is this part of the bible that you chucked?
I am NOT saying the garbage in your (or mine, or any Christians) life will be any less, but dealing with it is smoother when you know God is on your side. What do you mean by “living in error’?

And finally, YOU CANNOT FAIL GOD!

Sincerely, pattimax

 

[Cage]

Check out all the verses about the second coming of Christ in the NT and tell me about his wrath and anger.

‘Messiah’

A sacred mind, an endangered heart.
The strength of the father inside.
A mercy seed with life in a hand,
in him freedom, and joy reside.

He calls to all that believe in him,.
And he’ll welcome those who try.
Mercy is found within his name,
and heaven is in his eye.

Wrath is in his other eye,
and in his other hand is death.
A grave to those that resist his way,
and paradise to all the rest.

His sword is but the Spirit of God
His wrath is brief and mild.
Inside the hearts of those who see,
he shall slaughter the beastly wild.

Ironic wisdom displays his ways;
a beacon of light from God above
Paradise he shall bring to sight;
his wrath O’world is Love.


My take on his wrath and anger, anyway.


Much Love,

 

[Quahom1]

Are you speaking of comments elsewhere as I am playing by your guidelines here on this thread. Does that offend you or seem to corner you in that I am using the writings you profess to believe to reason with you?

Peace,
JM

Not at all. But then you go and interpret as you see as fit also. Since Abraham was 2,500 years dead, and yet Jesus stated before Abraham was (past tense), I Am (present tense of to be), I see little room for interpretation of what Jesus states. Jesus never states "I was".

 

[Faithfulservant]

might I add that God doesnt make grammatical errors..

 

[E99]

Hello Dor

Your quote:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


This scripture can give its true meaning to what Thomas was saying by using Jesus’ own words.......After Jesus' resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said:

"I am ascending . . . to my God and your God." (John 20:17, )

If therefore the words of Thomas at John 20:28 is calling Jesus the lord as ‘the God‘, why does Jesus not say the same. Why doesn’t Jesus say “I am ascending as lord God, your God, instead he says ...” ascending to my God“.

Jesus was not ascending to himself, but to his God, this is what he is clearly telling us, to a separate entity the creator God.


The very fact that the named God Jehovah is called the Almighty God indicates that there are other gods not so mighty. So Thomas could call Jesus God, but not THE God, and three verses later Jesus is called "the Son of God So there was no objection to John's reporting that Thomas addressed Jesus as a deity.


Powerful men were indeed addressed as Gods in the Bible:

Exodus 4:16, "And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people; and it shall come to pass, that he shall be to thee a mouth, and thou [Moses] shalt be to him as God."
Is Moses God ?


Would we even be discussing this if someone else was thus addressed?

Consider 1 Samuel 20:12 "And Jonathan said unto David, O lord God of Israel."
or ......"And Jonathan said unto David, OYahweh Elohim of Israel"


No one would ever argue that David was God, but if ever there was a movement to think so, this verse would be used as a proof-text.
What really is a proof text if you apply this same concept in the scriptures above to the 'Jesus is God' proof texts ?


The answer to what is being said at John 20:28 can also, as usual, be found from analysing the original scriptural language that was used. But this is in-depth and takes a lot of explaining.


Your Quote:

Hebrews1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


"HO QRONOS SOU HO QEOS"
Actually this reads as......."God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness." NWT


Other translations render it in the same context as the NWT e.g.
"About the Son, however, God said: "Your kingdom, O God, will last forever ! You will rule over your people with justice."-Todays English Version.


Reading on to Hebrews 1:9 God, your God, anointed you." This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.


Your quote:


John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Yes he knows all and he grew in wisdom and knowledge and he was tempted. He was fully man and fully divine.


The actual translation taken from the original Greek (middle part)......Greek syntax in English:


“he-said to-him the third you-are-being-fond me and he-is-saying to-him master (kurious) all you have-perceived (oida) you are-knowing (ginosko) that I-am- being-fond you is saying to him........


.........And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him.


The word 'oida' is transliterated as ‘have perceived’ which is then further transliterated as 'thou knowest' or know all things.


The original is not saying that Jesus is knowing all things as God does, he perceives and knows all things by perception from the almighty God. The son of God could not do a thing on his own initiative and prayed to God for everything. Similarly, all that Jesus knows is through his father Jehovah God. The apostles knew this, but relativly speaking, to humans...the apostles, it would have seemed that Jesus was all knowing.