What good is the doctrine of Predestination?

[Silas]

My point in this whole thread is why should it matter to us the doctrine of predestination? Why is Silas so bent on presenting this issue?

If we do the will of the Lord, preach the gospel to every creature, and love others as ourselves, live according to His Word, implore people to repent and believe the Gospel, how does our knowledge of predestination, whether true or not, even need to affect our life in the Lord? We are still commanded to do these things regardless. It seems to me that it is pointless to go on rambling back and forth on this issue. it is a vain arguement because obviously lines in the sand are drawn and the two camps will never agree with the issue.

Quite frankly, the thought that God preordains some to go to hell is abhorant to me. If I cannot believe in a gracious God, who is fair to everyone, then how can that be a God of Love. No sir, we all have a choice, we are all without excuse (Romans 1). The knowledge of God is implanted in our conscience and is proclaimed in creation. It is up to us to respond, or not to respond, to that call.

I'm done with this topic. I do not see any benefit in further discussion, in this post or any other simliar post, whatsoever. Our's is not to know the reason why, but to do. So G'day!

As C.S. Lewis once said, "Hell is locked from the inside." He also went on to say that "there are only two kinds of people. Those who say to God 'thou will be done' and those God says to, in the end, 'thou will be done." What does this mean, Dondi? It means that God does not send anyone to hell that wants Him. Everyone that seeks, finds abd everyone that knocks, has the door open. <admin edit, -jt3> The doctrines of election and predestination are in the Bible for the Christian. There are many wonderful fruits and ramifications that will occure for those who understand it. I would tell you, but I dont you will understand. Its almost like the Matrix, I think. To understand it, you have to see it for yourself. And, God himself has to reveal it. It is not something we could ever believe without His grace and teaching. My advice to you though, as a Christian who love the family of Christ, is to study these doctrines before you make your judgement. Do not speak against it if you do not understand it because that would not be fair. Be a berean and study to see if these things are true. "It is the glory of God to hid a matter and the of a king to seek out a matter." - Proverb 25:2

 

[juantoo3]

The concept of predestination falls on its face on so many levels, Biblically and logically:

1. It is a wasted philosophy that has no bearing whatsoever on salvation.

2. It implies that a person's actions, if they are predestined "chosen," cannot *ever* be evil, and that a person's actions, if they are predestined "not chosen," can *never* be righteous. In effect, a "chosen" mass murderer gets to go to heaven while a "not chosen" saint can only look to comfort in hell.

2A. This implies G-d makes "junk," people born innocent for the sole purpose of being destroyed.

3. It implies G-d has created evil, on purpose.

4. It implies G-d has more interest in creating fire wood for hell than He has in creating human beings to return His love.

5. It implies, even being generous, that well in excess of 95% of the people who ever walked the face of the planet are doomed through no fault other than being born. It also smacks of self-righteousness and exclusivity in direct defiance of the teachings of Jesus.

6. It leaves wide open the question of just "who" is "chosen?" You, because you say so?

7. It makes sin of no account.

8. It makes works of no account.

9. It makes grace of no account.

10. It makes love of no account.

The only thing that counts is being "chosen."

Now, I realize the Bible speaks of The Chosen...however, who does the choosing, and when? It is not for men to assume. Further, not being chosen is not an automatic sentence to hell.

There is no denomination "chosen." There is no race "chosen." There is no I.Q. "chosen." There is no nationality or culture "chosen." G-d creates a select few to carry out specific instructions or operations, the rest of us get to choose whether or not we will obey the standing orders given to everybody in accord with "the law written on our hearts."

Yes, I have already done an in depth study long ago and came to the conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Silas]

juantoo

The concept of predestination falls on its face on so many levels, Biblically and logically:

Wrong. The doctrine of predestination is for the Christian. No one is as so bold a witness as one who knows that God has a people that will believe the "foolish" gospel. These sort of men will preach in the worst of places. No one has more faith than one who knows that God chose Him from before the worlds were and therefore will love Him for forever. The devil hates the one who has assurance! No one hates sin more and counts his santification with more earnestness and joy as the one who knows that He is saved by grace alone. The man that knows he is elect is too good for sin. The doctrine of predestination is God message for His elect (Christians). It has the exact opposite effects as humans would think.

1. It is a wasted philosophy that has no bearing whatsoever on salvation.

Wrong. "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." - Romans 8:28-30

2. It implies that a person's actions, if they are predestined "chosen," cannot *ever* be evil, and that a person's actions, if they are predestined "not chosen," can *never* be righteous. In effect, a "chosen" mass murderer gets to go to heaven while a "not chosen" saint can only look to comfort in hell.

It implies that for you because you have no idea what the doctrines teach. First of all, no one apart from Christ is righteous in God's eyes. Eliminate Martin Luther King Jr. M. Gandi, Mother Terresa, the little nice old lady down the street, etc., "No one is good, not even one." Secondly, those whom God calls will be molded into the image of Christ. They will never be perfect on this earth, but they have God's promise that He will cause them to be holy. They will work out their salvation with fear and trembling, because he is in them to both do the willing and working, that they may be santified. Third, the road to Heaven is a narrow and very difficult road. No sinner who is still murdering will go to Heaven. They will go to the same place as the "saint" who is apart from Christ.

2A. This implies G-d makes "junk," people born innocent for the sole purpose of being destroyed.

Where do you get that "God dont make junk slogan from?" What bible verse is that? Try to have a Biblical out look on God if you're going to talk about Him. "The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverb 16:4

3. It implies G-d has created evil, on purpose.

A wrong understanding of God will lead to that very conclussion. God is light and in Him there is no darkness (1John 1:5). But, God does make evil. Now in saying that, you must understand that God does NOT stand behind evil as we do. He is not disingenous or some evil guy in the sky that is delighting in doing us wickedness. That is NOT the God of the Bible! But again, in saying that, He does bring about evil for His own purposes and it is Good when He chooses to do so because nothing but good can come from Him. All of God's choices are good and wise and just! "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create evil (calamity), I am the Lord, who does all these things." -Isa 45:7

4. It implies G-d has more interest in creating fire wood for hell than He has in creating human beings to return His love.

A wrong understanding of God will assume that. God does not create for you or me or anyone else. He creates for Himself. "All things were made for Him and by Him" (John 1:3). God creates for His own Glory. Its not about you, its about Him. That all said, it is wise to understand that God does not send anyone to hell that want Jesus. "All that come to me I will in no way cast out" (John 6:37).

5. It implies, even being generous, that well in excess of 95% of the people who ever walked the face of the planet are doomed through no fault other than being born. It also smacks of self-righteousness and exclusivity in direct defiance of the teachings of Jesus.

You sound like what Paul was describing in Romans 9:10. "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?'" I will answer your question as Paul answered the question. "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" (Romans 9:20-21).

6. It leaves wide open the question of just "who" is "chosen?" You, because you say so?

The chosen or elect are those who do the will of the Father. If you are a Christian, a real one (not a liberal...Jesus is just another way, type Christian) you are an elect of God.

7. It makes sin of no account.

C.H. Spurgeon once said, "the man that knows he is chosen of God is too good for sin." This sort of man will not stoop so easliy in sin and delight in the very thing that caused His Lord and Master to face such indescrible agony.

8. It makes works of no account.

You sound like a JW now. The Christian performs good works not to be saved, but to please God. "People will see our good works and glorify God." We do NOT do good works in the hopes that God will except us, that is an insult to Jesus' finished work on the cross. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and in Christ alone. It is NOT of our good works, lest we have reason to boast. There will be no boasting, for God will get all the glory! You do not seem to have an idea of why Jesus came. You should pray that God will give you a heart to understand His so great a salvation.

9. It makes grace of no account.

Now that is funny! Predestination is 100% grace. No one who understands this doctrine can ever be but one thing: Humble. We didnt earn it or merit it. God freely gave it because He was pleased to do so.

10. It makes love of no account.

This is also funny! Predestination is 100% about God's choice to Love us. Do you know How holy He is? Its an amazing thing that He saved any at all. You cannot fathom that kind of love.

The only thing that counts is being "chosen."

We are called to repent and trust in Christ, not find out who is chosen. If God is pleased to reveal election by His grace to you, then bless His name for it.

Now, I realize the Bible speaks of The Chosen...however, who does the choosing, and when? It is not for men to assume. Further, not being chosen is not an automatic sentence to hell.

God's election is based on His foreseen knowledge that sinners choose sin over Him. "No one seeks God" (Romans 3:11). God in His mercy choose to save some to display His mercy and left the others to their free will choice.

There is no denomination "chosen." There is no race "chosen." There is no I.Q. "chosen." There is no nationality or culture "chosen." G-d creates a select few to carry out specific instructions or operations, the rest of us get to choose whether or not we will obey the standing orders given to everybody in accord with "the law written on our hearts."

I think you have good conjecture, but it does not line up with Scripture. 1. Saved people, i.e., "all of Israel" (made up of both Jew and Gentile) are a chosen race (1 Peter 2:9-10). 2. King Solomon was chosen of God to have a great I.Q and be the wisest man to ever live, except for Jesus. 3. The Jews were chosen of God as a nation. 4. I agree with you that we get to choose to obey the laws written on our hearts. Have you obeyed?

Yes, I have already done an in depth study long ago and came to the conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about.

The 9th commandment says "thou shall not lie." If you did an "indepth" study of predestination, you wouldnt have said all of what you said. But you have a point. I probably dont know what I'm talking about?

 

[Silas]

Check out the following eposide of Way of the Master here.

 

[Silas]

Also check out the two clips here. Also, if you're interested in redeeming time, check out the following site where you can learn about a plethora of subjects and topics.

 

[Saltmeister]

The future is a multi-faceted potential. There are infinite outcomes. Predestination simply means God knows all of them, every possibility. Free will determines which outcome will occur for each man, but God sees all possible outcomes for each man. That is why the book of life isn't opened until final judgement. We all have choice, and the chance to have our names added in the book of life, until our life passes from this existence into the next.

v/r

Joshua

Infinitely many outcomes? I think that idea would work.

According to the present theory of quantum mechanics, events in the universe are probabilistic and happen depending on a probability distribution. So the universe is stochastic not deterministic.

The doctrine of predestination suggests that there will only be one outcome. Not infinitely many. Predestination is basically a synonym for Fate, which also suggests that there will ultimately be only one possible outcome. Fate and predestination are about what is certain to happen.

Another word we have is destiny. But destiny and predestination aren't the same thing. Destiny is about what is meant to happen or meant to be. But what is meant to happen depends on a lot of things: the physics in the universe, the weather, the circumstances or the relationships that one has during one's lifetime.

Destiny is also quite subjective and pertains to human sentiment and wishful thinking. We say maybe this is our destiny because "we wish this would happen." Think about all the legends and heroes of humanity. We dream up our gods, legends and heroes and wish somehow they were a reality. If it happens, or if we anticipate or portend that it might happen, we say it must be one's destiny.

Destiny is personal. It's about what we believe in and how we feel. It's like our longing for a romantic wife or husband. When we finally meet that wonderful man or woman we say it must have been our destiny, that we "belong together." Destiny can be sweet, but it can also be a tragedy.

Destiny can change depending on what one values and sees as important. As Kyle Reese in The Terminator says, "The future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves." It can also change if we anticipate something bad that might happen, so we change our direction.

Fate and predestination are a special case of destiny. I believe in destiny and free will, but I would not completely agree that there is only one possible outcome and that it is certain to happen. I think in the physical plane we do live in a probabilistic universe. In the spiritual, soulish, mental, emotional and social plane, we are driven by how we feel, what we dream and wish for, which I would say is also "stochastic" and "probabilistic" in the sense that there is no certainty in where our feelings, emotions, dreams and relationships may lead us.

In that sense, I believe in destiny, but I don't believe in Fate or Predestination.

If the universe were entirely mechanistic and deterministic, and the impending future was certain to happen then it would have no meaning. What's the point? We can't change our future. We can't change our destiny. We are just dominoes set up for a show. How boring and dismal. So where do I fit in? Where's the fun? The adventure?

But if we can change the course of events, somehow steer ourselves away from disaster, then that gives us another reason to live. We can re-invent and re-create our lives. We can look back on the past, which we can't change, and decide what to do with ourselves in the future.

Actually, it's not really the events that actually matter. It's the experience. One day everyone will have to make a decision on where he fits in a relationship with God. You can't say either way what will happen. It will just happen. The guy will make a decision based on what he's experienced.

It's a relationship. Those who God chooses have themselves chosen God. It goes both ways simultaneously. Those who don't choose God have not been chosen by God. They belong to God because it was meant to be, but what is meant to be can change. God has feelings for us, just as we have feelings for Him. But our relationship can change. If we don't want God, He will let us go and we are no longer "the chosen."

The certainty is not in predestination, but in a destiny that cannot be cancelled. Once you choose to be with God, there is no turning back. It's a promise that you and God keep. It's like a marriage. Only until death do you and God part. But anyone who enters into a relationship with God will never die because God protects and preserves those whom He loves and those who love Him. God Himself will certainly not die. You will be with Him forever.

That is what I think it means to be "one of the chosen." The certainty is in a destiny that cannot be cancelled.

So there is no such destiny as predestination. It's the agreement or covenant that it refers to, not the order of events in the universe -- that God will never stop loving those who belong to Him -- His chosen people. Their ultimate relational destiny, not their predetermined destiny, is fixed. It's the experience, not the events that matter.

What can I say? God isn't just a mathematician. He doesn't just get credit for designing a mathematically elegant universe. The idea of predestination comes from the idea that God must be a mathematician, balancing out some gigantic equation to forecast the future and determine exactly what will happen.

I have no doubt that He can do that, but there comes a time when emotions are more important than mathematics and logic. There comes a time when we need to rip up the paper work and spend time with our kids. We are human beings, not the Vulcans in Star Trek. It's not all logic and maths. What happened to our relationship with God? What happened to God's emotional reasoning and intelligence? Does God somehow not have emotions? Is God a Vulcan?

While we should not understate God's mathematical ability, what about His emotional ability?

 

[juantoo3]

Silas, I’m going to be sincere with you. I am not name calling, I am not casting judgement. I am calling it like I see it. There is no consistency to what you say. IF G-d is nothing else, He is consistent.

“The concept of predestination falls on its face on so many levels, Biblically and logically:” –jt3

Wrong. The doctrine of predestination is for the Christian. No one is as so bold a witness as one who knows that God has a people that will believe the "foolish" gospel. These sort of men will preach in the worst of places. No one has more faith than one who knows that God chose Him from before the worlds were and therefore will love Him for forever. The devil hates the one who has assurance! No one hates sin more and counts his santification with more earnestness and joy as the one who knows that He is saved by grace alone. The man that knows he is elect is too good for sin. The doctrine of predestination is God message for His elect (Christians). It has the exact opposite effects as humans would think.

Mighty presumptuous for a Christian to presume predestination. Biblically, the only people who have a legitimate claim to being chosen are the Jews. But you don’t believe the Bible, you believe some “masters” program of brainwashing. That’s OK, we still love you. Elsewhere you said Jesus does not fellowship with sinners, setting the example, Christians should not interact with other people in “the worst of places.” I disagreed with you then, and I suggest what you say here is inconsistent with what you said then. G-d knows everybody from before the worlds were, but only a select handful are chosen in the sense you suggest. I suggest those would include the likes of Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Elijah. Do you see a pattern here? Do you know of anybody alive today that even comes close? The rest of us, not counting the chosen Jews, come to G-d by being drawn by the law written on our hearts. The chosen Jews are G-d’s estranged wife, and they are in the midst of a reconciliation. Whereas Christians, at best, are the as yet unwedded bride of Christ. As for the devil hating those with assurance…the devil hates everybody, so what? Without the proper protection of the spirit of G-d, a person would be a fool to stand against the adversary unwittingly, assurance or no. This is one place where ignorance is no blessing. G-d protects His own, until His own wander of their own foolish volition into stupidity. As for hating sin more, so what? This person you imagine is just as sinful and prone to sin as any other, whether he hates sin or no. The trouble is, this kind of reasoning sets one up for a disasterous fall. The sinner hates sin, but continues to sin. The more he sins, the more he hates sin, the more he hates himself. He reaches a point he can bear it no more, his humanity / animal nature one day gets the best of him, he falls, he surrenders to what is natural anyway and curses G-d for the trouble, and commits himself to a life of sinful opposition to G-d. I’ve seen it play out several times now…the fallen person never seems to remember the lesson of forgiveness, which includes forgiving oneself. That is not possible when one hates sin and hates the sinner / self. An elect person is not too good for sin, else they would be too good to require salvation or grace. Your own words, all fall short. If a person is too good for sin, it is impossible to fall short. Which is true? Too good for sin, or all fall short? Can’t have both.

“1. It is a wasted philosophy that has no bearing whatsoever on salvation.” –jt3

Wrong. "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." - Romans 8:28-30

I’m not going to play battle of the out of context twisting of verses with you. You have already demonstrated you are too willing to misrepresent on that count. Being called is not the same as being chosen, and this is not an issue of semantics. “Chosen” is handpicked, everyone else is “called”…whether or not we hear or respond to the call is another matter.

“2. It implies that a person's actions, if they are predestined "chosen," cannot *ever* be evil, and that a person's actions, if they are predestined "not chosen," can *never* be righteous. In effect, a "chosen" mass murderer gets to go to heaven while a "not chosen" saint can only look to comfort in hell.” –jt3

It implies that for you because you have no idea what the doctrines teach. First of all, no one apart from Christ is righteous in God's eyes. Eliminate Martin Luther King Jr. M. Gandi, Mother Terresa, the little nice old lady down the street, etc., "No one is good, not even one." Secondly, those whom God calls will be molded into the image of Christ. They will never be perfect on this earth, but they have God's promise that He will cause them to be holy. They will work out their salvation with fear and trembling, because he is in them to both do the willing and working, that they may be santified. Third, the road to Heaven is a narrow and very difficult road. No sinner who is still murdering will go to Heaven. They will go to the same place as the "saint" who is apart from Christ.

Mighty big of you to speak for G-d as to whom He will save and whom He won’t. Not even His word says that, and I do seem to recall the Word suggesting in no uncertain terms that is it not wise (to say the least) to speak as though one is G-d. Eliminate Martin Luthur King, Jr? Why, because he was a black man? Eliminate Mother Theresa? Why, because her active Christianity is so very much more like what Jesus taught than what you preach? Is your select little exclusive club of who gets into heaven and who does not so small as to keep out even other Christians? My, My! By the time you are finished, maybe you will be the only one getting in to meet St. Peter at the pearly gates? Of course, you’ll be mighty lonely all by yourself. But what the hey, you’re chosen!

“2A. This implies G-d makes "junk," people born innocent for the sole purpose of being destroyed.” –jt3

Where do you get that "God dont make junk slogan from?" What bible verse is that? Try to have a Biblical out look on God if you're going to talk about Him. "The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble." - Proverb 16:4

Elementary deduction. 1st chapter of Genesis. You might try reading it sometime.

“3. It implies G-d has created evil, on purpose.” –jt3

A wrong understanding of God will lead to that very conclussion. God is light and in Him there is no darkness (1John 1:5). But, God does make evil. Now in saying that, you must understand that God does NOT stand behind evil as we do. He is not disingenous or some evil guy in the sky that is delighting in doing us wickedness. That is NOT the God of the Bible! But again, in saying that, He does bring about evil for His own purposes and it is Good when He chooses to do so because nothing but good can come from Him. All of God's choices are good and wise and just! "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create evil (calamity), I am the Lord, who does all these things." -Isa 45:7

How schizophrenic can one get? G-d is good to create evil to do good … it doesn’t even make sense. Here’s a verse to look up: “Beware when men call evil good, and good evil.”

“4. It implies G-d has more interest in creating fire wood for hell than He has in creating human beings to return His love.” –jt3

A wrong understanding of God will assume that. God does not create for you or me or anyone else. He creates for Himself. "All things were made for Him and by Him" (John 1:3). God creates for His own Glory. Its not about you, its about Him. That all said, it is wise to understand that God does not send anyone to hell that want Jesus. "All that come to me I will in no way cast out" (John 6:37).

I think I would be more careful with the “ASSumption” accusation. For one, you are way off base in what it was I did say. And it neglects to take into consideration what was said directly to you specifically. Which brings up an opportunity to make one very strong point. You do not listen. Fools do not listen either. Listening does not mean agreeing, but it is difficult to learn with one’s ears and eyes closed and one’s heart and head hardened.

Since the basis of the comment being ignored is covered in the next portion, I will continue there.

“5. It implies, even being generous, that well in excess of 95% of the people who ever walked the face of the planet are doomed through no fault other than being born. It also smacks of self-righteousness and exclusivity in direct defiance of the teachings of Jesus.” –jt3

You sound like what Paul was describing in Romans 9:10. "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?'" I will answer your question as Paul answered the question. "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" (Romans 9:20-21).

Allow me to first ask, “who are you to speak as G-d?” To G-d I will answer, but not to you, or any other man who comes claiming to speak in G-d’s name. Nothing personal, but Christ is not in any closet, not in any desert, and not on any televangelist brainwashing seminar.

Now, to the previous question: simple mathematics. Christianity has only been around less than 2 thousand years. Humanity has been around at least 100 thousand years. Even if one wishes to distinguish the 8th day creation of the man Adam and somehow place him at 6 thousand years ago, there have been a whole lot of people created that are not Christian. Now, G-d does not call anything “good” unless it is good. On the 6th day He created man and woman, and it is not only good, it is very good. What you are saying is humans being created to be destroyed is against the Word of G-d in Genesis (and elsewhere). It is not Good to be Evil. I don’t care how you try to mangle that around to suit yourself, it is not logical and it is not consistent with the Word of G-d.

Of course, you don’t stop with Christianity. You leave even Christians out. Just because you don’t like somebody’s interpretation does not mean you are correct in your interpretation. Yours is one of very many I have heard over the years, all of which are “the only way.” So, if the Catlickers are the only way, and the JWs are the only way, and the Mormons are the only way, and the Baptists are the only way, and the Episcopalians are the only way, and the Greek Orthodox are the only way, and the Pentecostals are the only way, and the Evangelicals are the only way, and the Fundamentalists are the only way and the Seventh Day Adventists are the only way and the Christian Scientists are the only way and the Scientlogists are the only way…man, that’s a lot of “only” ways, and only one ccan be right. What is so special about you that I should believe you over the guy over there? At least he’s consistent in his arguments, and doesn’t quote out of context, which makes him more believable. Hmmm…maybe he’s actually chosen.

 

[juantoo3]

“6. It leaves wide open the question of just "who" is "chosen?" You, because you say so?” –jt3

The chosen or elect are those who do the will of the Father. If you are a Christian, a real one (not a liberal...Jesus is just another way, type Christian) you are an elect of God.

OK, now you’re conflating two different terms in the hope of connecting them. Elect has little to do with chosen. The elect do the will of G-d, as do the chosen, but the two are different categories.

“7. It makes sin of no account.” –jt3

C.H. Spurgeon once said, "the man that knows he is chosen of God is too good for sin." This sort of man will not stoop so easliy in sin and delight in the very thing that caused His Lord and Master to face such indescrible agony.

Well then this Spurgeon guy hasn’t read the Bible, has he? All fall short, your words, and I agree.

“8. It makes works of no account.” –jt3

You sound like a JW now. The Christian performs good works not to be saved, but to please God. "People will see our good works and glorify God." We do NOT do good works in the hopes that God will except us, that is an insult to Jesus' finished work on the cross. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and in Christ alone. It is NOT of our good works, lest we have reason to boast. There will be no boasting, for God will get all the glory! You do not seem to have an idea of why Jesus came. You should pray that God will give you a heart to understand His so great a salvation.

Aside from the repeated namecalling and other suggestions about my character I am struggling to deal with in a polite manner, what do the JWs have to do with anything, besides your apparent prejudice? The righteous man is the working man:

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
(*According to Silas, “We do NOT do good works in the hopes that God will except us, that is an insult to Jesus' finished work on the cross. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and in Christ alone.” -jt3*)
James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
*I’ll let G-d’s word speak for itself, thank you.*

“9. It makes grace of no account.” –jt3

Now that is funny! Predestination is 100% grace. No one who understands this doctrine can ever be but one thing: Humble. We didnt earn it or merit it. God freely gave it because He was pleased to do so.

Funny how? What you say doesn’t even make sense, and it sure isn’t Biblical.

“10. It makes love of no account.” –jt3

This is also funny! Predestination is 100% about God's choice to Love us. Do you know How holy He is? Its an amazing thing that He saved any at all. You cannot fathom that kind of love.

Funny how? Again, you make no sense, and it sure isn’t Biblical. It completely neglects free will. It implies that all people are created to be destroyed, except some very few who are fortunate enough to be “chosen” to stand around heaven and worship G-d as little robots. Love you G-d … Love you G-d … Love you G-d … Love you G-d … Love you G-d …

How is that sincere or genuine love? It completely denies what love truly is, is love is not given freely, received freely and returned freely, it is not love. Not sure what it is, but love it ain’t. So I find it quite amusing your vision of what the creation of humanity is in the eyes of G-d. It is completely at odds with logic and the Bible. It also leaves you in position, as you have done repeatedly, to speak as if you are G-d, as though you have an inside scoop on what He thinks. The “TRUTH” is, you don’t have any more than the rest of us have. As Christians, we have access to the exact same words and the exact same contextual evidence that you do…and I might suggest most of us are humble enough not to blaspheme by implying we speak for G-d.

The only thing that counts is being "chosen."

The trouble is, you don’t get to choose. G-d does. You speaking as if you know the mind of G-d does not make it so.

We are called to repent and trust in Christ, not find out who is chosen. If God is pleased to reveal election by His grace to you, then bless His name for it.

Then why bother bringing it up to begin with?, it has no bearing on the salvation of the average joe or josephine.

“Now, I realize the Bible speaks of The Chosen...however, who does the choosing, and when? It is not for men to assume. Further, not being chosen is not an automatic sentence to hell.” –jt3

God's election is based on His foreseen knowledge that sinners choose sin over Him. "No one seeks God" (Romans 3:11). God in His mercy choose to save some to display His mercy and left the others to their free will choice.

This flies in the face of Romans 2, of which I have already supplied the entire chapter for your viewing pleasure, written by the same guy who wrote this. Of course, it is easier to read what one wants into verses pulled out of context so one can make the Bible say what they want it to rather than what G-d intended. Ah, such is life…I find it all the time. Which Paul is correct then? Your interpretation, or Paul’s words plainly spelled out in black and white?

“There is no denomination "chosen." There is no race "chosen." There is no I.Q. "chosen." There is no nationality or culture "chosen." G-d creates a select few to carry out specific instructions or operations, the rest of us get to choose whether or not we will obey the standing orders given to everybody in accord with "the law written on our hearts."” –jt3

I think you have good conjecture, but it does not line up with Scripture. 1. Saved people, i.e., "all of Israel" (made up of both Jew and Gentile) are a chosen race (1 Peter 2:9-10). 2. King Solomon was chosen of God to have a great I.Q and be the wisest man to ever live, except for Jesus. 3. The Jews were chosen of God as a nation. 4. I agree with you that we get to choose to obey the laws written on our hearts. Have you obeyed?

Aside from your further continued uncalled for jabs, I think you have a twisted view of G-d’s word even here. I listen to the law written on my heart daily, all of my life, and it is very[/i] presumptuous and rude of you to imply that I don’t. You are not my judge. You are not my jury. You are not my executioner. Get over it. You are just another in a long line of wannabe self-appointed prophets who come through this site hoping to convert others. That is not what this site is for.

“Yes, I have already done an in depth study long ago and came to the conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about.” –jt3

The 9th commandment says "thou shall not lie." If you did an "indepth" study of predestination, you wouldnt have said all of what you said. But you have a point. I probably dont know what I'm talking about?

You really, really don’t want me to go there with you… Really

 

[pfw]

Surely the biggest problem with predestination is that it doesn't matter 1 fig what you do- you're either saved or not. Gods already decided and nothing you can do will change that. So if God's chossen you already to be saved you could go around murdering, raping and whatever else you want- doesn't matter God's already decided you're saved... and you could even make the argument that if you don't do those things then you're going against God because He already knew you'd do thoses things-it was after all predestined... Or maybe it means EVERYONE is saved because anything and everything that happens only happens because God made it happen so no one is responsible for their own actions, therefore no one has ever sinned (because we're only following a path pre-programed by God and have no choice in the matter) so we all get to go to Heaven- Lucifer is suddenly looking like a better option under either of those options(lol).

 

[Silas]

juantoo

Silas, I’m going to be sincere with you. I am not name calling, I am not casting judgement. I am calling it like I see it. There is no consistency to what you say. IF G-d is nothing else, He is consistent.

Pay attention to what I'm saying. I'll use scripture to make it apperant. In saying that, I would ask that you look at yourself in light of God's law and see if you are a good person in His eyes. God will not judge you by your own standard of goodness, but His. Compared to me, you're probably good, but compared to what God says is Good - namely, Jesus, you are wicked. Let my words cause you to be angry and seek to see if what I say is true. Like everyone else, you will one day die. It is a scary thing to die without the Savior man, seriously!


Mighty presumptuous for a Christian to presume predestination. Biblically, the only people who have a legitimate claim to being chosen are the Jews.

Wrong. Romans 9:6-8: "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." God's chosen people are those counted in the promise. They are made up of both Jew and Gentile and come from every tounge, nation, and tribe.

As for the devil hating those with assurance…the devil hates everybody, so what?

The devil hates the elect more. He cannot stop them from being elect, he can only cause them to doubt their salvation and fall into sin at best. But, the Holy Spirt always brings God's wondering sheep back to Him, even if it takes chastisment to do so.

G-d protects His own, until His own wander of their own foolish volition into stupidity.

God NEVER leaves His own. Nothing can seperate from the Love of God in Christ (Romans 8:35).

As for hating sin more, so what? This person you imagine is just as sinful and prone to sin as any other, whether he hates sin or no. The trouble is, this kind of reasoning sets one up for a disasterous fall. The sinner hates sin, but continues to sin. The more he sins, the more he hates sin, the more he hates himself.

You have a unbiblical view on life. Anyone born of God will hate sin and hate himself (in his flesh). Thats a healthy sign because it shows that you are alive. An alive man will say "Oh wretched man that I am!" with the Apostle Paul, and "I am a man of unclean lips" with the prophet Issiah. The dead man will be comfortable in his sins and have no worries about it. Are you alive?

An elect person is not too good for sin, else they would be too good to require salvation or grace. Your own words, all fall short. If a person is too good for sin, it is impossible to fall short. Which is true? Too good for sin, or all fall short? Can’t have both.

Read what I say in context. When I said that the elect of God are too good for sin, I was speaking in context of choosing to live in sin. We will not choose to live in sin, but instead die daily by making war with the flesh and taking the kingdom by violence.


Mighty big of you to speak for G-d as to whom He will save and whom He won’t.

I said God will save His elect. I didnt say who they are. No one but God knows who they are. When He calls them, they will come to Christ and be Christians.

Eliminate Martin Luthur King, Jr? Why, because he was a black man?

I'm black. Eliminate Martin King Jr., because he is not good apart from Christ.

Eliminate Mother Theresa? Why, because her active Christianity is so very much more like what Jesus taught than what you preach?

Eliminate Mother Theresa because apart from Christ she is of the vilest sinner in God's eyes; like me and like yourself.

Is your select little exclusive club of who gets into heaven and who does not so small as to keep out even other Christians? My, My! By the time you are finished, maybe you will be the only one getting in to meet St. Peter at the pearly gates? Of course, you’ll be mighty lonely all by yourself. But what the hey, you’re chosen!

When I get to Heaven the first person I wnnt to see is Jesus, not Paul. All Christians will feel the same. We love our Lord and Savior.

Elementary deduction. 1st chapter of Genesis. You might try reading it sometime.

Genesis one says that "God does not make junk?" What verse?

How schizophrenic can one get? G-d is good to create evil to do good … it doesn’t even make sense. Here’s a verse to look up: “Beware when men call evil good, and good evil.”

You do not understand the true God, the God of the Bible. He is light and in Him there is no darkness (1John 1:5). Yet, God does make evil. Now in saying that, you must understand that God does NOT stand behind evil as we do. He is not disingenous or some evil guy in the sky that is delighting in doing us wickedness. That is NOT the God of the Bible! But again, in saying that, He does bring about evil for His own purposes and it is Good when He chooses to do so because nothing but good can come from Him. All of God's choices are good and wise and just! "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create evil (calamity), I am the Lord, who does all these things." -Isa 45:7


Now, to the previous question: simple mathematics. Christianity has only been around less than 2 thousand years. Humanity has been around at least 100 thousand years. Even if one wishes to distinguish the 8th day creation of the man Adam and somehow place him at 6 thousand years ago, there have been a whole lot of people created that are not Christian. Now, G-d does not call anything “good” unless it is good. On the 6th day He created man and woman, and it is not only good, it is very good. What you are saying is humans being created to be destroyed is against the Word of G-d in Genesis (and elsewhere). It is not Good to be Evil. I don’t care how you try to mangle that around to suit yourself, it is not logical and it is not consistent with the Word of G-d.

God created everything and it "was" good. Man sinned and everything became subjected to sin. Man became evil after the fall by His choice. What part of this dont you understand?

 

[Silas]

juantoo3

OK, now you’re conflating two different terms in the hope of connecting them. Elect has little to do with chosen. The elect do the will of G-d, as do the chosen, but the two are different categories.

I used the words "elect" and "chosen" interchangeable. Elect and chosen are the same.

Well then this Spurgeon guy hasn’t read the Bible, has he? All fall short, your words, and I agree.

All Christians, whether freewiller or Calvinist, would disagree with you.

Aside from the repeated namecalling and other suggestions about my character I am struggling to deal with in a polite manner, what do the JWs have to do with anything, besides your apparent prejudice? The righteous man is the working man:

You qouted all that and still have no understanding. A core essential belief of historical biblical Christanity says with the Apostle Paul, "we are saved by grace through faith alone, and not of our works." Good works are fruits that will be produced in the Christian, he does not do them to gain God's aproval. Rather, He does them because his nature has been changed - he cannot help but do them and do them to God's glory (not his own). There is no contradiction between James and Paul! Again, the Christian performs good works to glorify God, not to be saved or gain God's approval. <admin edit, -jt3>
Funny how? What you say doesn’t even make sense, and it sure isn’t Biblical.

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." -- 1Cor 2:14

Funny how? Again, you make no sense, and it sure isn’t Biblical. It completely neglects free will.

Where do you see in the Bible that salvation is left up to our free will?

It implies that all people are created to be destroyed, except some very few who are fortunate enough to be “chosen” to stand around heaven and worship G-d as little robots. Love you G-d … Love you G-d … Love you G-d … Love you G-d … Love you G-d …
<admin edit, jt3>

The trouble is, you don’t get to choose. G-d does. You speaking as if you know the mind of G-d does not make it so.

I speak using scripture. You speak with assumptions and your own understanding.

Then why bother bringing it up to begin with?, it has no bearing on the salvation of the average joe or josephine.

I didnt bring it up and predestination does have to do with salvation. Romans 8:30


This flies in the face of Romans 2, of which I have already supplied the entire chapter for your viewing pleasure, written by the same guy who wrote this. Of course, it is easier to read what one wants into verses pulled out of context so one can make the Bible say what they want it to rather than what G-d intended. Ah, such is life…I find it all the time. Which Paul is correct then? Your interpretation, or Paul’s words plainly spelled out in black and white?



I listen to the law written on my heart daily, all of my life, and it is very[/i] presumptuous and rude of you to imply that I don’t.

1 John 1:8..."If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

You are not my judge. You are not my jury. You are not my executioner.

Why is it when a Christian talks about sins, people say that we're judging? You're right though, I'm not your judge. Good observation!

Get over it. You are just another in a long line of wannabe self-appointed prophets who come through this site hoping to convert others. That is not what this site is for.

I hope this means that you are being convicted! "Today is the day of salvation! If today you hear the Holy Spirit's voice saying to repent and come to Christ, dont wait - GO!"

You really, really don’t want me to go there with you… Really

Go where? Its cold outside bro.

 

[juantoo3]

Silas-

“Is your select little exclusive club of who gets into heaven and who does not so small as to keep out even other Christians? My, My! By the time you are finished, maybe you will be the only one getting in to meet St. Peter at the pearly gates? Of course, you’ll be mighty lonely all by yourself. But what the hey, you’re chosen!” –jt3

When I get to Heaven the first person I wnnt to see is Jesus, not Paul. All Christians will feel the same. We love our Lord and Savior.

OK, see…this is what I’m talking about not listening…in fairness, I was being facetious and playing to the stereotype…but I did not say Paul, I said Peter. Twist it how you want, you don’t change the fact.

You are impossible to discuss anything rationally with because of this tendency to misrepresent things. I don’t care how zealous you might be, this tendency pretty well negates any kind of “good” you might be trying to convey.

Now, I can accept you interpret the Bible (or follow an interpretation of the Bible) that differs from mine…the difference between us is that there is room in my heart and my understanding for you…apparently there is not room in your heart or your understanding for me or apparently any others (or very, very few at most). To me, this is sad, and it grieves my heart.

But as long as you have this tendency to misrepresent (if I wanted to be mean spirited, I could as easily call you a liar) and you have this tendency to be prejudicial and judgemental, it is impossible to have a polite and rational discussion with you. That doesn’t make you “persecuted for righteousness sake,” it makes you unwise in your attempt to witness. It makes your testimony false.

CR is a place for learning from each other, mostly about learning how to interact peaceably with each other. You will not convert me…in part because I have no desire to convert, I am quite comfortable in my walk with G-d. I’ve heard everything you have to say many times before and it didn’t add up then, it doesn’t add up now. If you wish to hang around and learn a little from others, and share a little with others, you are welcome…but the proselytizing and the name calling are going to cease if I have to delete everything you write. Please notice, at no time have I told you outright that you were wrong, or that you were going to hell because you don’t believe the way I do. Those are not my calls to make…besides, it is just plain rude. My momma raised me better than that.

Beyond this exchange, I see no reason to continue with you, for the reasons I stated earlier. Other than any necessary moderation activities. Feel free to exchange with the others here…but I can just about guarantee that if you continue with your present attitude in doing so, you will quickly lose your audience. Its pretty hard to witness if no one will listen, don’t you think?

 

[Silas]

Silas-

OK, see…this is what I’m talking about not listening…in fairness, I was being facetious and playing to the stereotype…but I did not say Paul, I said Peter. Twist it how you want, you don’t change the fact.

You are impossible to discuss anything rationally with because of this tendency to misrepresent things. I don’t care how zealous you might be, this tendency pretty well negates any kind of “good” you might be trying to convey.

Now, I can accept you interpret the Bible (or follow an interpretation of the Bible) that differs from mine…the difference between us is that there is room in my heart and my understanding for you…apparently there is not room in your heart or your understanding for me or apparently any others (or very, very few at most). To me, this is sad, and it grieves my heart.

But as long as you have this tendency to misrepresent (if I wanted to be mean spirited, I could as easily call you a liar) and you have this tendency to be prejudicial and judgemental, it is impossible to have a polite and rational discussion with you. That doesn’t make you “persecuted for righteousness sake,” it makes you unwise in your attempt to witness. It makes your testimony false.

CR is a place for learning from each other, mostly about learning how to interact peaceably with each other. You will not convert me…in part because I have no desire to convert, I am quite comfortable in my walk with G-d. I’ve heard everything you have to say many times before and it didn’t add up then, it doesn’t add up now. If you wish to hang around and learn a little from others, and share a little with others, you are welcome…but the proselytizing and the name calling are going to cease if I have to delete everything you write. Please notice, at no time have I told you outright that you were wrong, or that you were going to hell because you don’t believe the way I do. Those are not my calls to make…besides, it is just plain rude. My momma raised me better than that.

Beyond this exchange, I see no reason to continue with you, for the reasons I stated earlier. Other than any necessary moderation activities. Feel free to exchange with the others here…but I can just about guarantee that if you continue with your present attitude in doing so, you will quickly lose your audience. Its pretty hard to witness if no one will listen, don’t you think?

I meant Peter, when I wrote Paul. But, somehow, I feel you knew that. I think you just couldnt agument against my points and the above was your way of resovling the situation. That said, please do not think I am trying to convert you. I cannot! I am confidient that if I say God's truth, the Spirit of God will do the saving if He so choose. Later bro!

 

[Saltmeister]

I meant Peter, when I wrote Paul. But, somehow, I feel you knew that. I think you just couldnt agument against my points and the above was your way of resovling the situation. That said, please do not think I am trying to convert you. I cannot! I am confidient that if I say God's truth, the Spirit of God will do the saving if He so choose. Later bro!

Hey . . . Silas.

Christianity isn't a science. It's not about right and wrong answers for all people. There are right and wrong answers for individuals, but not for the whole of humanity. Answers and solutions to problems are different for different people, depending on their personality, race, attitude, life story, etc.

Life poses a lot of questions that need answering, but for each individual there may be a different answer. A statement that is right for one person may be wrong for another.

Let's suppose you're listening to a Sunday school story. After telling the story, your Sunday school teacher asks the class a few questions. Are there right and wrong answers to those questions? I would say yes and no.

Whenever we reason about things that happen in any story, there may be several problems associated with our reasoning.

1) Revelance -- unimportant details
2) Missing the point -- not focusing on what's important
3) Unessential concepts -- including ideas that are not important

A kid in Sunday school, as part of his attempt to answer a question, may include irrelevant, unimportant or unessential details in his explanation or response. For example, Joab kills Abner. Is Joab a murderer? Of course!!! But there is something more important than the fact that Joab has just killed Abner. Abner is a high-ranking commander in the kingdom of Israel who has just abandoned his king. Abner is important to David because it gives him more of a sense of security. Abner has an army and has offered his loyalty to David. But Joab is jealous. Joab is the most important man in David's kingdom, but now Abner is taking his place. So he kills Abner.

Another example. King Jeroboam has taken over Israel. Solomon's son Rehoboam has fled south to Jerusalem. Jeroboam has a problem. The Temple is in Jerusalem. People want to worship God in His Temple. So they are moving south to Judah. To preserve power and save his kingdom, Jeroboam introduces a new religion. He tells the Israelites to worship golden calves. The fact that Jeroboam has caused the people to worship idols is less important than the reason why he's doing it. He's doing it for the selfish purpose of preserving his power and influence. It's obvious God doesn't like people worshipping idols. But why do people do it in the first place? They don't trust God. They need something more assuring. A Temple isn't enough. God wasn't enough for Jeroboam. So he created gods to save himself.

Concerning the idea of predestination. It really has to do with the idea that God is a far-seeing mathematician who can calculate exactly what will happen in the future, excluding nothing. Those advocating predestination believe that God has to see and choose everything in advance, and choose the best possible response. Sounds a bit like game theory. That's what predestination is about -- game theory.

From the discussion I've seen, it seems as if people get polarised about predestination. It would, actually, be nice if people put a bit less emphasis on the word.

There is a difference between "the condition of being chosen" and "predestination," but there is one common element -- certainty. Predestination suggests that future events cannot be altered, but that is not essential to achieve the condition of being chosen.

The condition of being chosen is a promise, guarantee, assurance of something wonderful from God. God, who knows more about us than we do about ourselves, obviously has a better idea of what's important for us. If God has a better knowledge of us than we do of ourselves, then obviously God's choices matter a lot more than our own choices.

God's choices override our's not because He's manipulative and know-all. God isn't a control freak. He cares for us. If we've been chosen, He obviously knows and believes His ideas for our lives are better for us than our own. Actually, if you think about it, if predestination existed, God wouldn't need to do anything. If the universe is a machine, and everything in the universe is a machine, then there are no people. There is no adversary called Satan, because Satan is just another machine. God could just wind up the clock, sit back and watch us like we watch TV.

Because it's a promise, it's also an agreement and a covenant. The course of future events may be altered, but God will ultimately prevail in His agenda. Whatever problems we face it will not ultimately affect our destiny or relationship with God. Our future is secure.

But that isn't predestination. A father loves his children, but doesn't have to foresee everything to know what's good and bad. If he's incredibly powerful (like Superman) he can protect his children from dangers, maybe every single time. Sure, he's not perfect and he makes mistakes. But he is always there to protect his children. God is a bit like that. Far-seeing mathematics and logic isn't necessary or essential. It's the power to protect. God doesn't have to be Father Time, He only needs to be a Superman Father.

God is obviously Father Time and Superman Father both at the same time, but Him choosing us has nothing to do with His qualities as Father Time, but more to do with Him being the Superman Father -- the guy who doesn't need to see everything, but can solve all problems.

(Father Time, by the way, is the masculine equivalent of Mother Nature in "naturalist mythology." Superman -- well, you all know who Superman is don't you? Should I add Father Christmas? What about Father Ted and Father Dougal and Father Jack?)

Predestination is a cliche. A loaded word that's overused. It's become part of the collection of banners and slogans that Christians carry around with them wherever they go. Banners and slogans are dangerous. There is more to Christianity than banners and slogans, and anyone who reduces Christianity to banners and slogans is doing a disservice to their understanding of Christianity and are not fully appreciating what it really means.

Predestination is one such slogan. This word needs to disappear. Christians need to use it less and less as a tenet and see it more and more as a poor way of expressing one's relationship with God. Predestination is not entirely the wrong idea, but just the wrong word.

Christianity isn't a science. It's about where we fit in as people.

 

[Paladin]

Does anyone think that Predestination and Determinism have the same root?

 

[flowperson]

Both are aimed at conjuring up predictable outcomes, thus providing comfort and security for the believers.

flow....

 

[Tariki]

Does anyone think that Predestination and Determinism have the same root?

They would seem to have, yet the actual Christian doctrine of predestination - at least as explained by Silas* - does not seem, paradoxically, to exclude the concept of "free-will"................which I believe would be excluded by a strict determinism.

i.e. see the post by Silas - (which I trust he does not mind me repeating).....

God's election is based on His foreseen knowledge that sinners choose sin over Him. "No one seeks God" (Romans 3:11). God in His mercy choose to save some to display His mercy and left the others to their free will choice.

The actual idea - and possibility - of a God, however omnipotent, being able to "foresee" the choice of a totally free being prior to their creation is discussed by the Christian theologian John Hick somewhere (I believe in his book "God and the Universe of Faiths.") To be honest, such arguments turn my head to jelly and leave me floundering, much like a lot of the Mahayana texts of the Buddhist Faith.

I just like to say the nembutsu and keep my head down.............

 

[Tariki]

Both are aimed at conjuring up predictable outcomes, thus providing comfort and security for the believers.

flow....

flow,

Under the "double destiny" idea associated with the doctrine of predestination of the Christian Faith, I would say that would not be the case. One would only remain in "comfort and security" so long as one did not "back-slide" - or whatever - at which point surely you would begin to suspect - and fear - that one was indeed not predestined for salvation, but for damnation? Seen in this light, one would constantly strive to do the "good" as a means of convincing oneself that one was in fact of the "elect"? (However much one sought to do the good from "gratitude")

However..........given a "universalist" edge, oh yes! Comfort and security indeed! And supreme gratitude that such is Reality!

 

[Silas]

They would seem to have, yet the actual Christian doctrine of predestination - at least as explained by Silas* - does not seem, paradoxically, to exclude the concept of "free-will"................which I believe would be excluded by a strict determinism.

i.e. see the post by Silas - (which I trust he does not mind me repeating).....

God's election is based on His foreseen knowledge that sinners choose sin over Him. "No one seeks God" (Romans 3:11). God in His mercy choose to save some to display His mercy and left the others to their free will choice.

The actual idea - and possibility - of a God, however omnipotent, being able to "foresee" the choice of a totally free being prior to their creation is discussed by the Christian theologian John Hick somewhere (I believe in his book "God and the Universe of Faiths.") To be honest, such arguments turn my head to jelly and leave me floundering, much like a lot of the Mahayana texts of the Buddhist Faith.

I just like to say the nembutsu and keep my head down.............

Good observation. It does seem to be a pradox to both affairm God's sovereignty in salvation and man's responsibility in coming to Christ, but it is nontheless there in the bible, so I affirm both. So you arent a Christian. How come? What keeps you back from falling at the feet of Jesus and asking for forgivness of sins?

 

[mee]

Predestination is an unscriptural teaching that slanders God.
false teachings, including predestination, do not glorify God. so it is no good at all.