Salvation not restricted to Christains

Dor said:
Quotes from Wiki mean nothing to me there beliefs from there own website mention no Jesus no bible so in my opinion they are remotely at best a christian organization.
Click to expand...
uh er...I posted from their website.

The Daily Word sends the scripture to over million homes monthly and online to millions more in email...oh....er bible...and Jesus quotes...and they do it "remotely"

You know Dor, what would really interest me is what your minister would think of Butch's talk and interpretations...I'd be willing to bet he/she would surprise you.
 
lunamoth said:
I agree with that part...but not that our mission is to judge and preach damnation. Our mission is the reconciliation of the world in and through Christ. Healing.
Click to expand...

Luna, I'm telling it from the heart. What we do is tell the word. If ignored, then we do an about face and march away. People are not stupid. They know the truth when they hear it.

If they do not care for the Christian way, then they take their chances. It's a pretty simple concept.

I know I sound a bit terse, but, I know people, and some of them do not care, but to pull as many down as they can.

shake her off. Ask God to help her, but not you. Shake her off.

my 2c

v/r

Joshua
 
Quahom1 said:
Luna, I'm telling it from the heart. What we do is tell the word. If ignored, then we do an about face and march away. People are not stupid. They know the truth when they hear it.

If they do not care for the Christian way, then they take their chances. It's a pretty simple concept.

I know I sound a bit terse, but, I know people, and some of them do not care, but to pull as many down as they can.

shake her off. Ask God to help her, but not you. Shake her off.

my 2c

v/r

Joshua
Click to expand...

Good advice Josh. Time for bed...looks I'll have to save reading the chewing out till tomorrow.
 
wil said:
Anyone care to listen to another idea of the sheep and goats? And if they are we? He winds around a while to get there, but is building all the time...
Click to expand...
Yucky: like so many he twists 'judge' with 'condemn' into a single KNot to preach apathy. In my opinion he teaches lambs to be goats instead of wolves.
 
wil said:
You know Dor, what would really interest me is what your minister would think of Butch's talk and interpretations...I'd be willing to bet he/she would surprise you.
Click to expand...
Actually Id love to see your reaction after he tells you what he thinks.
Remember my pastor teaches straight from the Bible. Besides every sermon he does is online and he has a daily radio show so you can see what he thinks real easy.

Calvary Chapel Fort Worth

LNF Playlist

feel free to go listen and if you run out there then you can head to
Calvary Chapel
Real Life Radio with Leo Giovinetti

Then feel free to ask Pastor Bill, Pastor Chuck or Pastor Leo what any of them think about Unity Center of Light but please also post the return email you get.:)
 
wil said:
lambs should be wolves and personal responsibility is apathy?
Click to expand...
No, wise as serpents and harmless as doves... and it is a personal responsibility to not be the apathetic goat. How wise or loving is the person who can not hear judgment? Hearing judgment does not hurt, but the preacher knots a word and a stone together as if they were the same.
 
Another interpretation of the goat, can be found here (short article - one of the 12 Labours of Hercules, plus commentary).

Note the relevant part, which states that:
At the foot of the mountain, the goat, the materialist finds nourishment in arid places. On the way up the mountain, the scapegoat searches for the flowers of attained desire, each with its own thorn of satiety and disillusionment. At the summit, the sacred goat beholds the vision and the initiate [into the Mysteries of God] appears.
​
This shows not one, not two, but three different possible meanings ... of the goat symbolism - and there are, of course, even others. ;)

namaskar
 
Yet none refer to Matthew 25?

Matthew 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

(Sheep)
Matthew 25:34-40 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

(Goats)
Matthew 25:41-45 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
 
cyberpi said:
Yet none refer to Matthew 25?

Matthew 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

(Sheep)
Matthew 25:34-40 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

(Goats)
Matthew 25:41-45 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
Click to expand...

Good call cyberpi, gotta go with you on this one.

I don't see the goats as part of the "flock." They are pretty well equated with the chaff.

That is not to say there will be none outside of Christianity saved...I think the qualifications for being in the flock are pretty straightforward...do unto others as you would have done to yourself, and love G-d with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength. I would add the caveat, these two may have mildly different interpretations outside of Christianity, but I choose to leave the matter to G-d as the final judge.
 
juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, all!

If I may chime in briefly?

Would this not be towards the end of the colonial era, and nominal conversions be due to the last vestiges of same?

I might point out, it is effectively illegal to be Christian in China...missionaries there literally put their lives on the line to smuggle Chinese language Bibles into the country. So I would think 3-5% quite generous and inflated.
Click to expand...

Hey There!

I wanted to say something yesterday, but I didn’t get to it.
The War For China's Soul | TIME

Karen
 
Hey, K!
pattimax said:
Hey There!

I wanted to say something yesterday, but I didn’t get to it.
The War For China's Soul | TIME

Karen
Click to expand...

Thanks for the article! This goes along with what I have heard, so it is little surprise. Although I was pleasantly surprised there are a few pockets of Christianity that seem to do well. Yet China still struggles with its identity post the little Tienanmen fiasco. Capitalism is alive and well, and even encouraged by the socialist government, in opposition to Maoist communist creed. Western "habits" are being brought in, tolerated and even adopted, witnessed by such as McDonald's and Kentucky Fried Chicken (squid?), Pepsi and Coca-Cola, and even Buick. So it is little wonder Christianity is making some inroads, although I would think it would have a distinctly oriental flavor. Somewhere around here Brian posted about a version of Christianity in Japan that is quite foreign to Westerners, almost unrecognizable.

Yet, China still struggles with maintaining its own identity, and is not ready to allow something like Christianity in a wholesale manner. Witness the crackdown on the Falun Gong movement, mentioned in the article. I see China now much like the US in the 60's, where violence was used, sadly, quite often, and not just in repressing religious dissent. Farmers are uprooted rather forcefully in the North East when the government wishes to use the land for other purposes. And while the 3 rivers gorge dam is a modern engineering marvel destined to bring much needed hydro-electric power to a sizable part of the country, it necessarily demanded the relocation of a great many peasant communities.

China's cities are booming...at the expense of its countryside. Not unlike another country I know... ;)

Ancient cultures typically feel threatened by anything that comes along and suggests change, especially the political power structures that stand behind and support those cultures. It is a natural reaction.

It is well that Christianity is able to make some inroads, yet that does not mean Christianity is the only way back to our Creator. I don't think G-d created 2 billion Chinese to be firewood for hell, especially when the typical Chinese person has the same hopes and dreams, ideals and morality, that any Christian worth the title has. Indeed, I find the Chinese by and large to be even more polite than most westerners.
 
cyberpi said:
Yet none refer to Matthew 25?

Matthew 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

(Goats)
Matthew 25:41-45 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
Click to expand...
er...this is exactly the quotes being discussed...on his left identified as goats are anyone who has done anything similar to this...TO ANY PERSON for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

You guys are obviously all saints if you don't see yourselves as goats in Jesus's words. I must admit, I have not provided food to everyone I found hungry, brought every stranger into my house, provided clothing for all those who needed it, nor ministered to those in prison.

You emphasized the IT, and the fact that if you've passed up helping anyone, you passed up helping the Christ.
 
Kindest Regards, wil!
wil said:
er...this is exactly the quotes being discussed...on his left identified as goats are anyone who has done anything similar to this...TO ANY PERSON for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

You guys are obviously all saints if you don't see yourselves as goats in Jesus's words. I must admit, I have not provided food to everyone I found hungry, brought every stranger into my house, provided clothing for all those who needed it, nor ministered to those in prison.

You emphasized the IT, and the fact that if you've passed up helping anyone, you passed up helping the Christ.
Click to expand...
Even Mother Theresa couldn't help everybody. You raise a good point, certainly I could do more. But I think it is self-defeating to think we can save every needy individual that happens to cross our path. Jaded me, I will go so far as to make the comment that not all that appear needy truly are. Yet, are we to give all our worldly possessions to assist others?...others that are only too happy to have one's belongings to add to their growing collection? Where is the common sense line to be drawn? Do we give our whole paycheck, presuming we can live without a car, a house, food and clothes? (nevermind the cell phone, computer and television!) Do we live our lives in rags and hungry so we can hand over our paycheck to those who are effectively ungrateful? (who would hire us or keep us on a job in such a state of being?)

I have long said I am willing to assist anybody trying to assist themselves. I see no charitable need to give my hard earned money to a panhandler to support a drug or alcohol habit. I will feed the hungry, if I am aware they are truly hungry, but I will not give money to someone simply because they say they are hungry. Ever offer food to a panhandler who claims to be hungry? Watch how quickly things change..."oh no man, I want the money to buy a hamburger." "OK, let me take you to get a hamburger." "Oh no man, how can I trust you?" "OK, I will go buy you a burger." "No man, just gimme the money..."

I've seen it enough to know it goes on. Some people who appear to be "needy" are that way by choice, and who am I to deny their choice? I will not enable their self-destruction, they will have to find another means.

The irony is, a genuinely needy person who is trying to help themselves and could really use a hand-up (not hand-out), generally tries to hide the fact they could use a little assist. Sometimes you gotta look for them, the ones that truly need. If it is your place to assist, G-d will make it known, in no uncertain terms.
 
Prober, serpents have long been symbols of Wisdom. Just ask any Chinaman ... ;) :)
(You do realize I'm quite serious, yes? ;))

Here is a moderate-length Wiki article on the Serpent - and religious/mythological symbolism.

Also, ever notice the Staff of Hermes, the Caduceus, on medical buildings? Medicine - a good thing, yes? :) (ah well, usually so)

If you read the Wiki article, please do not fail to note the part at the bottom about `Political propaganda.' For me, that speaks volumes!

Namaskar,

andrew
 
wil said:
er...this is exactly the quotes being discussed...on his left identified as goats are anyone who has done anything similar to this...TO ANY PERSON for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

You guys are obviously all saints if you don't see yourselves as goats in Jesus's words. I must admit, I have not provided food to everyone I found hungry, brought every stranger into my house, provided clothing for all those who needed it, nor ministered to those in prison.

You emphasized the IT, and the fact that if you've passed up helping anyone, you passed up helping the Christ.
Click to expand...
Food and drink mean more than food and drink. Judgment and employment? Word and Service? As I say, the preacher twisted 'judge' and 'condemn' into one knot and thus teaches apathy. I wish him to become wiser than a serpent, and yet remain harmless as a dove. Becoming a slave to the sins of another is not very wise.

I did listen as he quoted the , (John 8:7) "... He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." and the "speck in eye, plank in eye". Is a stone good food? Does a person learn from it? I bet she loved the words of judgment she received instead of the stones that would have condemned (killed) her.
 
juantoo3 said:
It is well that Christianity is able to make some inroads, yet that does not mean Christianity is the only way back to our Creator. I don't think G-d created 2 billion Chinese to be firewood for hell, especially when the typical Chinese person has the same hopes and dreams, ideals and morality, that any Christian worth the title has. Indeed, I find the Chinese by and large to be even more polite than most westerners.
Click to expand...

We had a visiting pastor from a large church who regaled how they have started a Christian School/College in China. Instead if sending one or two missionaries, they sent a group of 30 volunteers made up of teachers and missionary worker, all salaried in full (paid by the church missionary funds in a conglomerate with other megachurches) during the time they serve over there (usually an average of two years). Having a large group like this allow an easier turnover of people for people who need to go on furlough or other emergencies back home, in which case they will sent someone else to take their place. This is quite unlike the single missionary who may toil for years and years to establish a church and find themselves taxed into exhaustion, only to find when they go on furlough their ministry suffers. But the missionary group will always have fresh workers to keep things running smoothly.

What's neat about this idea, and it is becoming more popular in places like China, it that the Chinese authorities don't really care what is taught in the Christian school as long as it teaches English to the Chinese students. This gives great latitude in spreading the gospel during the course of study and many have come to Christ as a result. I hope and pray that these kind of lights of hope will become a trend there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top