There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

To me, free will involves the ability to seek out information and advice (influence), and to accept, reject, or modify such advice/influence according to your perceptions and values, and apply them to your action or non-action. Free will involves being able to control your desires, or to act outside of your desires if you choose. It's the ability to choose "when to grasp and when to let go" in a coordinated manner. {Just my opinion.}

namaste Seattlegal,

these are only our opinions, of course :) and that is why we are all here, as near as i can tell.

how can you determine that what you choose to seek out has not been influenced by your past experience and current enviornmental conditions?

as near as i can tell free will doesn't have much to do with lessening desire nor of being free from influence of said desires.

i suppose the crux of it is what factors lead us to make our decisions to choose this or that, accept this or reject that?

it is my view that beings cannot make such determinations without reveiw of their previous history and experience. i'm not suggest a more elaborate rendering of Pavlovian conditioning it is more subtle than that and more difficult to actually discover and root out.

that said, the Christian paradigm does support the idea that free will is an illusion. the Christian paradigm also supports the idea that free will is paramount. go figure.

metta,

~v
 
Namaste Azure,

thank you for the post.

Hello Vajradhara, (It's good to see someone agrees with me.:))

i'd imagine that you'd not have expected to find support for such an idea from Buddhism :)

It takes spiritual power not to sin and we simply do not have it. If you belive you have free will, WILL yourself not to sin, go on give it a try, I dare you!

i doubt that you would believe it but i do not sin. of course this is because there is no concept of such a thing in my religious paradigm and, honestly, the whole memeplex regarding sin is counter to my understanding of the nature of sentient beings.

that said, i've seen many Christian redefine the term "sin" to essentially mean anything they don't agree with or approve, so in this sense there is little chance that a being could no sin unless that being held the exact same views as the one presuming to determine if another has sinned.

metta,

~v
 
Azure said:
Remember the principles of the Universe: Cause and Effect!
What you don't see is where the cause enters the universe, and where the effect leaves. You see dominos falling one by one and have called it a principle. A principle of what? There are dominos that fall and that will never cause another to fall ever again, and there are dominos that fall without there ever being one behind it to have caused it.

Did you not ever notice that history kind of gets lost so that it can not cause any more effects? Where does it go? Yet you still figure the reverse is not possible, that a cause can not enter without it being the recycling of a leftover effect.
 
Namaskar Vajradhara,

...i'd imagine that you'd not have expected to find support for such an idea from Buddhism :)

This is quite true, though I (think I) know Buddhism's philosophy on Free will.

that said, i've seen many Christian redefine the term "sin" to essentially mean anything they don't agree with or approve, so in this sense there is little chance that a being could no sin unless that being held the exact same views as the one presuming to determine if another has sinned.

This again is true. In terms of Christianity Free will contradict's Jesus and God's foreknowldge. This becomes especially important for the doctrines relating to salvation and predestination (like the one I mentioned about Peter).

To say there is free will is to say everything is foreseen; yet free will is given (which is a paradox).

In general terms we are always influenced. Our choices are causally determined by some combination of our genes, our upbringing, and our present circumstances (or something of the sort).
 
namaste Seattlegal,

these are only our opinions, of course :) and that is why we are all here, as near as i can tell.

how can you determine that what you choose to seek out has not been influenced by your past experience and current enviornmental conditions?
Of course what we choose to seek out is influenced by our past experience as well as our conjecture regarding the future. That is one of the processes by which we learn. We can continue in the same rut, making the same mistakes, or we can change course by learning from our mistakes.

as near as i can tell free will doesn't have much to do with lessening desire nor of being free from influence of said desires.
I would say that having the skillfulness to manage our desires certainly opens up a greater range of possibilities from which we are able to choose and be successful in.

i suppose the crux of it is what factors lead us to make our decisions to choose this or that, accept this or reject that?
That, as well as our abilities and skills, our core values, and our motivations, along with any number of other factors. These would vary between different beings.

it is my view that beings cannot make such determinations without reveiw of their previous history and experience. i'm not suggest a more elaborate rendering of Pavlovian conditioning it is more subtle than that and more difficult to actually discover and root out.
Is it not true that each of us is unique in previous histories and experiences? One could look at it from the perspective that each being's unique history and experiences are actually part of that being?

that said, the Christian paradigm does support the idea that free will is an illusion. the Christian paradigm also supports the idea that free will is paramount. go figure.

metta,

~v
Sort of like the Buddhist idea of there being no "self?" :D
 
Sure he can. Just pull the plug.

Even then there'd still be a lot of randomness in the voltages in the circuits.

Gaussian-distributed white noise. Everything above the ground state, absolute zero, has it.

It's a stochastic universe.
 
This again is true. In terms of Christianity Free will contradict's Jesus and God's foreknowldge. This becomes especially important for the doctrines relating to salvation and predestination (like the one I mentioned about Peter).

To say there is free will is to say everything is foreseen; yet free will is given (which is a paradox).
Mark 10:23-27
23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”
27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
 
This again is true. In terms of Christianity Free will contradict's Jesus and God's foreknowldge. This becomes especially important for the doctrines relating to salvation and predestination (like the one I mentioned about Peter).
Faith is a matter of giving will. You think God cheated, that he did NOT give you the will, but that he still demands it back? Say, wasn't Peter a sinner, not doing some things that he should of, or doing some things that he shouldn't? Didn't Jesus say that a person is a slave of their own sins?

To say there is free will is to say everything is foreseen; yet free will is given (which is a paradox).
God can call shots that man can not. There is a history that you can not see, that God can. There is a future that you can not make, but that God can. What paradox?

In general terms we are always influenced. Our choices are causally determined by some combination of our genes, our upbringing, and our present circumstances (or something of the sort).
So what chooses between the genes, the upbringing, or the present circumstances? That would be a matter up to the free will. Or, maybe not in your case?
 
Even then there'd still be a lot of randomness in the voltages in the circuits.

Gaussian-distributed white noise. Everything above the ground state, absolute zero, has it.

It's a stochastic universe.
Are you trying to control it, or to measure it? He said control and you can control it. A sledge hammer does wonders. That is, if you have the free will to use it. Just to be clear, we are talking computers, right? ... careful with that hammer.
 
...Say, wasn't Peter a sinner, not doing some things that he should of, or doing some things that he shouldn't? Didn't Jesus say that a person is a slave of their own sins?


You obviously have not read my previous posts...

There is a future that you can not make, but that God can. What paradox?

How can God make the future if there is free will? This means that doesn't know what we will do...

...So what chooses...quote]

From now on, I will not repeat myself. I already said we can make choices.
 
How can God make the future if there is free will?
I see this troubles you. How are you able to post and control this thread, if I am too? This thread, is it per your will, per my will, per anyone else's will, or per God's will? Is this thread hopelessly fixed in time, its life and future pre-ordained? I find the answer is, that God has power that you and I do not, and can choose whether or not to use it. Yet not everything that happens in this world is per God's will. I find you have to ask for his will if you want it.

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

So, not everything here is per God's will, and yet... it is. Tricky play on words there, isn't it. A matter of whether or not taking no action is still per your will. Some events will be unknown until they happen.

From now on, I will not repeat myself. I already said we can make choices.
I will repeat what I know others have said: That the choices that can be made are what people call free will.
 
i say,

that when you are sinning, you are outside in the broad path. this is when we have free will. when you rebel, God allows you to have free will, but will still influence someone through events or through the environment to achieve His own ends. He uses events and environment to discipline you. this is not to say that God doesn't still use you for His puposes. again, He allows this to happen for His Name's sake. in the end, He gets the glory anyways.

and when you do God's Will, then your will is taken away. that is when you don't have have free will anymore. when one is on the narrow path. but this is a good thing! being a servant and not doing things on your own. as history shows, we royally scew things up anyways if we try to do things on our own! so leave it to God. He will take care of it. so imo, it is both. we have free will and we don't, depending on which path we are on. yeah, yeah i am probably going to get alot of slack for this since we can't serve two masters, but it makes sense to me. it is both.

sort of like balaam on the donkey and the angel that was in his way. balaam was still going where he wanted to but the angel was trying to get in the way to tell him to get on the right path, but balaam wouldn't listen. the same could be said about God being the Shephard and we being the sheep. if God hides His face from us or doesn't guide us on the right path, chaos happens. at this point we have free will, but that doesn't do us any good does it? but if He guides us, if we do His Will, the situation is just so much better! it is when we have free will, that we mess up. but no free will, well you know the rest. thanks for reading and God bless you...
 
God causes (not allows, but causes) many things including evil...

“…so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land…” (Josh. 23:15)

“…shall there be evil [Heb: ra—‘bad, evil’] in a city, and the Lord has not done it? (Amos 3:6)

Is there any real difference in saying that God "gives life" or that God "causes a baby to be born?" Is there any real difference in saying that God "takes away life" or that God "causes us to die?" When it comes to death, we prefer euphemisms. We don't like to hear that "our Mother is DEAD!" We prefer to say that "Mother passed away." We don't want to be so honest or brutal as to say "God KILLED my son" but rather "God took my son." But the use of mellower-sounding euphemisms does not negate the fact that God appointed a time for us to be BORN, and He also has appointed a time when we must DIE.

Our will cannot change any of God’s "appointed events" or His "appointed times" in which each event must occur.You might think that you can. You might suggest that you will commit suicide and shorten your life. How silly—how totally unscriptural. No one can commit suicide unless and until the "appointed time" that God has foreordained that you commit suicide, if indeed God has ordained such a thing for you.

"There is no man that has power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither has he power in [Heb: authority over’] the day of death..." (Ecc. 8:8).

There's more:

"Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labor that he takes under the sun all the days of his life, which God gives him: for it is his portion." (Ecc. 5:18).

"Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with Thee, You have appointed his bounds that he cannot pass" (Job 14:5).

"If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my APPOINTED TIME will I wait [in the grave] till my change [resurrection] come" (Job 14:14).

Ecc. 1:13—"It is an experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."

Jesus said: "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matt. 10:30).

Do you realize what that statement means? If your hairs are all numbered, then God must know and take note every time ONE FALLS OUT, for the number then changes. All these things are mentioned in the Bible but some don't want to believe it...
 
azure,
All these things are mentioned in the Bible but some don't want to believe it...
would you agree that it isn't up to you, even if you show people these verses, for them to see the truth? it is at God's appointed time that they should see any of this. we plant the seed and God makes it grow. i think some people like to call this "subjective experiences"? i call it, "it is not their appointed time yet to see". the truth can be right there, staring them right in the face, and if their appointed time isn't then, then it isn't time yet. not much we can do right? God's Will be done...

would you also agree that the Spirit is like the wind, we don't know where it comes from or where it is going? this is where you don't have free will. if you follow where the Spirit is going, you come across people that need the message. then is when we plant the seed and pray that they don't get choked up by this world. i ask and say this because it sounds very much like you are trying too hard to get the message across via internet. i don't think God intended the message or report to be given via computers. just my thoughts.
 
I have a simple series of questions.

If God is the one actually moving people to kill one another (which frequently happens), then why did He bother to tell us not to kill/murder?

How can the murderer be held responsible, if it is actually God that moves the murderer to kill someone?

And why bother with any morality or ethics at all?

Because if we have no free will, then we will be exactly what we are, and if we pursue our desires, however sinful, it is not our fault, because we were "moved by God" to act that way.

Then, the most evil of people- Hitler, for example- is acting in accord with God's will just as much as the most saintly of people.

It all becomes a show- a play. It is all illusion, some grand screenplay that God writes for His amusement. We have not much to do with it at all, so then there is no reason to attempt to do much of anything. The logical conclusion for our own lives, in terms of practical action, is the same as the atheistic view (but worse)- do whatever you want, because none of it matters. Any lasting effect you have, positive or negative, moral or immoral, is not due to you anyway. In fact, there is no good or evil, no positive or negative, since everything is according to God's design, including what we perceive to be as evil.

And there is no hope for salvation for anyone who has not already been predetermined to be saved. So there is no point in any discussion- the regular spreading of the Gospel or debates such as this. It was all pre-scripted, so there is no meaning for any of us. I'd ask you why you're here even debating, since obviously none of us that disagree can possibly agree with you (since we were predestined to disagree), but then... of course you are predestined to go on and on in this debate... So you are unable to answer that question satisfactorily anyway.

Seems a singularly dismal view, if you ask me. Disempowering and to be honest, boring. No hope for change, no hope for people to connect to God, unless they already would have. Glad I don't agree with you. I'd find such a world deeply depressing.
 
How can God make the future if there is free will? This means that doesn't know what we will do...

Who said God doesn't know what we will do? If God is at "the beginning" and the "at end," this might suggest that God experiences time differently than we do. {Perhaps something like everything happening all at once in a state of timelessness or eternity? I can't say for sure. If this is the case, then of course God would know how we react, because God experiences everything, past, present, and future, all at once.}

The real question would then be this: Is God a micromanager? I'm sure God could be, if that is what God wanted. However, is it necessary for God to micromanage everything?
 
Hello LeoSalinass22,

It is good to see you are back again (but you never left?).

azure,

would you agree that it isn't up to you, even if you show people these verses, for them to see the truth? it is at God's appointed time that they should see any of this. we plant the seed and God makes it grow. i think some people like to call this "subjective experiences"? i call it, "it is not their appointed time yet to see". the truth can be right there, staring them right in the face, and if their appointed time isn't then, then it isn't time yet. not much we can do right? God's Will be done...

Yes, perhaps you are right. After all the revelation will be revealed to everyone...
 
Isaiah 45:7 is one of my favorite passages. It is a teaching, I think, not about "free Will", but rather about where evil comes from, and what that means. The first part of the verse expresses a standard dichotomy" Light and darkness. The opposite of light is dark. In "forming" the light, God took the uniform light, which is no easier to see in than uniform darkness, and separated it from darkness, creating contrast, which enables us to perceive the light even better than if it were uniform. The implication is that to make light useful, and to make it a "choice", there needs to be a contrasting alternative. Pretty basic stuff. This stanza, by presenting information we already easily grasp, sets up how we are to interpret the next. Aside form God taking "ownership" for the act described, it is nothing even the least intellectual of us can grasp.
It is the next stanza which is astonishing to me.
Apparently, the opposite of "evil" is not "good", as I supposed, but is in fact "peace". Those of you who own a Strong's will see that these terms are plain, and unambiguously refer to the concepts, not some personification or alternate. It clearly states that God Created Evil. It explains he did so to provide contrast to Peace, like darkness contrasts to light. The implication, I believe, is that we now have a choice. The part that really lights me up is this: I find it much easier to distinguish "peace" (which has outward manifestations) than to distinguish "good" which often is quite dependent on paradigms, perceptions, and knowledge of circumstances and conditions of heart that are not available to me, the chooser).
As I see it, this passage is intended to educate me into making better choices. Why would a God who has already predetermined my every action and outcome give me the illusion of choice?
Indeed, what is the point of the Prodigal Son story if the father in it was completely in charge of the wayward son's every action and choice?
If God had wanted the universe to unfold exactly as he laid it out, it would be made that way, and we would all be compelled to worship Him and obey His commandments. I believe that GOD IS PRO CHOICE, that indeed this is what creation is all about.
God will make the general course of the world follow His plan whether we go along or not, as is His right and within His power as Creator, but the most incredible thing about the God of the Bible is that He imposed on Himself the rule NOT to interfere with the will of His creatures, because to do so would be to void the benefit of their having voluntarily chosen to follow Him.

To paraphrase Screwtape, God wants each of us "little vermin" to become like Him, but at the same time remain "disgustingly" distinct from Him. Evil is empty, and seeks to be filled by consuming us. God is full to overflowing, and seeks to overflow into us without consuming or absorbing us.

I believe in a God who created me in His own image, meaning that I, too, am a creator. I get to create my own path through the world He made and rules. I get to make choices that determine whether my path will be easy or hard, rewarding or taxing, fulfilling or empty. My choices will have an impact on His creation, to be sure, and the truly spectacularly erroneous ones will take no small effort on His part to counteract; nonetheless His will ultimately prevails through the fulfillment of His great plan, whether I help or not.
Do I choose peace? Or do I choose the alternative?
God will allow me to experience the consequences of my choices, but this would be meaningless if my choices were already made for me. Would you like to play a game of football in which you controlled the plays and players for both sides? Where the other team's fumble in the end zone that resulted in the go-ahead safety was scripted by you before the opening kickoff?
Even more meaningless would be the other team for showing up. And the announcers for sounding excited.
In fact, why are those who believe in predetermination, or predestination, even writing about it? They cannot change my mind on the subject, even as I cannot change it, if what they say is true.
That said, I hope they are wrong. In fact, if they are not wrong, there is no need for hope, or dreams, or plans, or even education or discussion. I do not choose to believe them....or at least, I am under the illusion that I choose so.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
The real question would then be this: Is God a micromanager? I'm sure God could be, if that is what God wanted. However, is it necessary for God to micromanage everything?


Genesis 2

1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

If God is resting on the seventh day, and God sanctified that day, is God micromanaging on the sanctified day of rest? ;)
 
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