BlaznFattyz
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I did not create the universe, come down from heaven, die on a cross and rise again glorified and sit on the throne of God. I am just the clay, I am not the potter.
The Trinity, from the JW view.
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C
cyberpi
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Did Jesus, a son of God, create the universe?
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Matthew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles.
BlaznFattyz
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Yes, God created all things. Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone." In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
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cyberpi
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Is the universe God? Are you, I, or anyone here the Father?
BlaznFattyz
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No, we are his creation and had a beginning. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
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cyberpi
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Then neither is Jesus the creator of the universe and neither was Jesus God. Jesus said himself he was a Son of God.
What church do you attend that teaches Jesus was/is God?
BlaznFattyz
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Jesus is the creator of the universe, and Jesus is God, and the Father calls him God. All knees will bow to him, and those that know him, worship him and we are His, and no one can snatch us from his hand.
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cyberpi
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Whatever church you attend is your father... you believe as it teaches. According to Jesus his church is built upon the fact that the living God reveals to his followers:
Matthew 16:16-18 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Flesh and blood hath not revealed that Jesus is the Son of the living God... but the Father which is in heaven. The Father reveals that Jesus is the Son of the living God. You, however, teach that Jesus is God. I presume because your church taught that to you?
BlaznFattyz
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The Holy Spirit of God reveals it. It is not by flesh and blood, but by the Spirit that God is made known, and Christ is my Lord and my Saviour and in him I have eternal life. Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Behold, He is coming in the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
M
mee
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stick to the bible and we cant go wrong 
The Father Superior to the Son
Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)
We should believe Jesus, for he surely knew the truth about his relationship to his Father.
Jesus mentioned God’s superiority when the mother of two of the disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and the other at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom.
He answered: "This sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give." (Matthew 20:23)
If Jesus had been almighty God, it would have been his to give. But it was not. It was his Father’s to give.
Similarly, when relating his prophecy about the end of this system of things, Jesus stated: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32)
Had Jesus been God Almighty, he would have known that day and the hour. But he did not know because he was not the All-knowing God.
He was God’s Son and did not know everything that his Father knew.
yes sticking to what the bible really teaches works wonders to our understanding . it gives us accurate knowledge .
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.psalm 83;18
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.psalm 83;18
The Father Superior to the Son
Jesus knew that he was not equal to his Father but in every way was in a subordinate position.
Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)
He knew that he was a beloved Son who had deep love for his Father.
That is why, time and again, Jesus made statements such as the following:
"The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing." (John 5:19)
"I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38)
"What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." (John 7:16)
"I know him [God], because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth." (John 7:29)
The one who does the sending is the superior. The one who is sent is the lesser, the servant.
God is the sender. Jesus is the one who is sent. They are not the same.
John 13:16.
We should believe Jesus, for he surely knew the truth about his relationship to his Father.
Jesus mentioned God’s superiority when the mother of two of the disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and the other at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom.
He answered: "This sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give." (Matthew 20:23)
If Jesus had been almighty God, it would have been his to give. But it was not. It was his Father’s to give.
Similarly, when relating his prophecy about the end of this system of things, Jesus stated: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32)
Had Jesus been God Almighty, he would have known that day and the hour. But he did not know because he was not the All-knowing God.
He was God’s Son and did not know everything that his Father knew.
yes sticking to what the bible really teaches works wonders to our understanding . it gives us accurate knowledge .
BlaznFattyz
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What the bible teaches, which is the part your hall is failing you, and you have not gone from bottled milk to meat is that the Word of God sent from the Father is the Son, and emptying himself from his glorified position in heaven to that of a man being born under the law, put the limitations of man upon him. That does not negate Him from walking among us as God, but it is God walking among us with the nature of man as well. Through the Holy Spirit of God that dwelt fully in him as it dwells fully in the Father, he is the exact representation of God the Father that we can see. It is for this reason he emptied himself, that is taking on the form of a man, so that he could be circumcised, obey his parents, grow in wisdom, take on the position of rabbi at the right age, and die for our sins as only the perfect will and love of God can provide--this is God's grace. All the while being our saviour, redeemer, king, lord of lords, light of men, high priest, and God. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Dream
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Reading between the lines, you are suggesting non-trins have never even considered this passage. Otherwise you'd at least attempt to engage us on it. I mean, we have brains.BlaznFattyz said:
Without understanding our point of view you can never answer our questions, which means you will only be able to defend against missionaries - unable to help anyone. Nothing will change. I mean, I feel as if you are completely unwilling to answer my objections/questions about trinity, like you assume I can't or don't want to learn or haven't read the passages -- like you think I haven't ever thought about this one? I know you interpret Jesus is claiming to be the One God from this passage as well as others, however non-trin objections remain in my mind. You don't even know them or care, however I still feel like this passage fits into the non-trin point of view. You might be able to argue much more effectively (aka help me with my questions) once you've heard the non-trin point of view on something. We're supposed to overcome our own non-trin objections by writing 'Jesus is God' on the chalkboard a thousand times? Try to imagine that maybe this is a difficult topic and maybe you could come half way? If you feel like I'm not even trying, then please tell me why; but I feel like you're not trying at all.
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Bishadi
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I’m a Dad but not even JC said he was ‘the father.’
And yes, if life is ‘light’ as ‘in the beginning, there was light’…. Then it is pretty easy to bring the reality that the ‘total’ is God….. this actually stands firm in a mathematical frame.
Well this is pretty rough in the context because I do not recall anywhere in Biblical literature suggesting Adam was ever given ‘words’ to read.
Nor cain and abel……..
But let’s look at creation a little bit….. gonasyphilherpelaids ….. is a created word.
Has all the makings of a real nasty meaning, but all the same a word was created.
So in the beginning, the first creation maybe ‘words’. As man is the only thing in existence that can create a word.
So if mankind has created all words (literally a fact) and we are thought to be created in the ‘image of God’…. Then to have that ability to create ‘words’ is literally a truth.
What else in existence (within God) can create a word? As to suggest God is other than or of something outside of mankind, is not representing God as One with mankind; a selfish isolation.
As each person ever born is ‘of God.’ And to stand out as other means either you contribute for the ‘good’ of existence (i.e.. Jesus, Darwin) or you isolate yourself from God by representing an isolated existence from God; religious secularizations.
A Constantinople sect that believes mankind can Creed (Nicene) that Jesus (a man) is God. Then again, what about the schism, which sect or division may be the best question. In either method of discussion most really have no idea what developed or how each sect changed over time but you can bet, the one each attends will be represented as ‘better than yours.’……….. :<
So all these words you post are not the words of God as you post “No, we are his creation and had a beginning. In the beginning was the Word “ So which is it, is Jesus (the light) God, is the word God…… or is the flesh and blood, known as Jesus God?
Funny part is; Jesus represented good knowledge, and shared in words but never read a book from all them writers suggesting HE was god, so why would God create words (as you suggest) and then allow them words to be changed by men, after HE died?
As Jesus knew he was a man, within God (he is in me as I in him, the father) …… As even Jesus knew from the point of an I, he was simply a man….. (why callest me good, there is none good but the father … Mark 10-18)
or better yet
18</SPAN>"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'
So I guess reading the words, as quoted, from JC himself, may even contradict what the preachers teach the youngsters and all within their own bible……
Sad isn’t it?
Namaste Bishadi. Do you think 'quote' is the right word? Wouldn't as paraphrased or as interpretted be more accurate? After all it was oral tradition for decades prior to being written, and where we have duplicate accounts rarely is the 'quote' exactly the same. And then of course it was written in Greek or Aramaic or Coptic and then translated a few times and then with so many different bible interpretations or versions each preacher often looks to which "quote" from which version works best with the point that they want to get across.
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Bishadi
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Now that is quality interraction and from the point of this "I".........
I appreciate that you have learned what is true and even to correct in the light is this discussion; we are equal!
Same with every human being that ever walked this earth, the only difference is some are willing to stand up and do something good for others and not need a return for the gift.
But I will say thank you kind sir, and I hope as your wisdom grows, you wil share with your children what is true and good.
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mee
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In [the] beginning the Word
(Or, "the Logos." Gr., ho lo´gos; Lat., Ver´bum; J17,18,22(Heb.), had·Da·var´.)
was, and the Word was with God,
(Lit., "was toward the God." Gr., en pros ton The·on´; J17,18(Heb.), ha·yah´ ’eth ha·’Elo·him´.)
and the Word was a god.
("A god." Gr., the·os´, in contrast with ton The·on´, "the God," in the same sentence; J17,18(Heb.), we’·lo·him´, "and god." )
This one was in [the] beginning with God.
JOHN 1;1-2
So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was. john 17;5
then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad proverbs 8;30
No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
john 1;18
who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
phillippians 2;6
yes , before Jesus came to earth he was a spirit in heaven like his father was . but he knew he was not equal to his father .
And God went on to say: "Let US make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth." Genesis 1;26
Jehovah is talking to his son,............ let us make man ............
(Or, "the Logos." Gr., ho lo´gos; Lat., Ver´bum; J17,18,22(Heb.), had·Da·var´.)
was, and the Word was with God,
(Lit., "was toward the God." Gr., en pros ton The·on´; J17,18(Heb.), ha·yah´ ’eth ha·’Elo·him´.)
and the Word was a god.
("A god." Gr., the·os´, in contrast with ton The·on´, "the God," in the same sentence; J17,18(Heb.), we’·lo·him´, "and god." )
This one was in [the] beginning with God.
JOHN 1;1-2
Joh 1:1—"and the Word was a god (godlike; divine)"
Gr., καὶ θεὸςη̉̃νὁ λόγος (kai the·os´ en ho lo´gos)
Gr., καὶ θεὸςη̉̃νὁ λόγος (kai the·os´ en ho lo´gos)
Yes the whole of the bible harmonizes when it is translated in the right way .
jehovahs witnesses have done things right . and it is very good .
jehovahs witnesses have done things right . and it is very good .
So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was. john 17;5
then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad proverbs 8;30
No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
john 1;18
who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
phillippians 2;6
yes , before Jesus came to earth he was a spirit in heaven like his father was . but he knew he was not equal to his father .
And God went on to say: "Let US make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth." Genesis 1;26
Jehovah is talking to his son,............ let us make man ............
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Bishadi
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and guess what, these exact types of descriptions are why, the earth is as such right now.
Today is earth day.... and it seems maybe bush and chevron know that scripture very well.
Like you it seems to control, rape, cheat and corrupt mother earth, with created words (fibs) as they can impose to the world, all the while having the idea of no responsibility; we see your point and what you represent quite well o' mee me.....
each will judge and your works are in print......
BlaznFattyz
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The JW organization re-writing the bible to say that "Jesus is a god" does not harmonize with Hebrews where God calls his Son God, and it does not harmonize with Revelations where Jesus, the one who died and lives forevermore, says he is God, and it does not harmonize with many scriptures saying that God would send us his Son who will be Salvation, when God says he is Salvation, and where he says he gives him his glory, when God says he shares his glory with no one, and it does not harmonize with Jesus Christ and John the Baptist saying he is the Lamb of God that always existed. a man alone does not exist eternally, a man alone does not sit on the throne of God with God's glory, creating, and judging mankind, nor does any man have the power to prophesize and take up his life again because holds the power of life.
M
mee
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yes the bible is in print for all to read , some say the bible is fibs, some say it is inspired of God , mee says the bible is a message from God and it is very good[/font][/b]
each will judge and your works are in print......
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures
No matter what our circumstances, the Bible contains the direction and counsel that we need. Read it daily.
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
2 timothy 3;16-17
M
mee
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[/font][/b]
we see your point and what you represent quite well o' mee me.....
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth. psalm 83;18
and it is very good
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.
john 3;16-17
Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth. matthew 5;5
After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
revelation 7;9-10
yes it is very good .
Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.
matthew 24;45-47
its all happening especially in the last days , i am well fed , because i go to the right channel , i go to the channel that Jesus is feeding and it is very good
and it is made up of faithful ones.