What do you believe about End Times?

I'm with Luna (big surprise). I primarily see it as a symbolic text on the destruction of corruption and remaking of the world. I don't think prophecy is foretelling the future. I also think it was one of many revelations at the time (we've found other revelations texts by other writers) and why this particular one was chosen is a big question mark for me.

I do agree with Wil in that I think the way Revelations is used in the US churches is often driving poor, short-term decision-making and aiding in the control of folks. But it's with their consent, so what are you going to do?


I agree that there is a lot of symbolism and imagery in the book of Revelation, but whenever anyone says that the book is symbolic, I have to ask what do you mean by that? How we to take the symbols metaphorically? What application does it have in our own lives? What is God telling us exactly?

I admit that there have been endless scores of books that have attempted to decipher a literal interpretation of end-time events, some making sense, others so off that it borders on ridiculous. We certainly need to be discerning. But if there is a message there from God, regardless of the difficulty of extracting it, we ought to give it a college try. Then there the promise of blessing for anyone who reads Revelation, confusion or not.

Is it not possible that the symbology is placed there to afford some protection on the mysteries of God until such a time as they will be revealed according to God's purpose and timing? We may all be wrong, until before we know it, it happens before our eyes.

I'm going to post later my take. But one thing that I believe important is that any interpretation of Revelation must be studied in light of revelation that has become before and it must be in agreement. There are many parallels and hints that can be gleaned in the Old Testament books such as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Jeremiah, as well as the Gospels and the Epistles. I believe that the message is integrated throughout the whole Bible and it would be a worthy venture to attempt to extract what we can with the information we have available.

Having said that, I also agree that there has been abuse and attempts to control certain groups and sects using end-time prophecies. However, Scripture in general has been used that way, yet that ought not to take from away the message nor should we avoid it in light of those abuses.
 
I'm with Luna (big surprise). I primarily see it as a symbolic text on the destruction of corruption and remaking of the world. I don't think prophecy is foretelling the future. I also think it was one of many revelations at the time (we've found other revelations texts by other writers) and why this particular one was chosen is a big question mark for me.

I do agree with Wil in that I think the way Revelations is used in the US churches is often driving poor, short-term decision-making and aiding in the control of folks. But it's with their consent, so what are you going to do?
I believe that is a misnomer on Wil's part (or a generalization concerning all Christian churches in the US). The reality is the majority of churches in the US do not dwell incescently on the book of Revelation or the end times, but rather focus on the here and now, and how to live a Christ like life, "daily".

One of the key reasons is because Christ himself said "not to dwell" on the end times, but focus on the here and now, because the kingdom is now and is within. In short, act like we own it because, we already do...

If that is the case, then the only ones who'd have to concern themselves with the end times, are those who aren't accepting of what Christ offers.

If the world is fast becoming a desert, then Christ is telling us to become an oaisis...
 

All members are welcome to post their views here, and while no is expecting anyone to agree with a POV, we do expect civility toward each other.

lunamoth
I hope you really believe that after reading this whole thread.
Ask me in a week if anything has changed or if all views are not created equal.;)
 
Act like we own god's kingdom?
Yeah, we own the right and claim it. That's what Jesus said. See, we belong with God, and have belonged with God from the beginning. We turned away from our inheritance, God didn't turn us away...

Think "prodigal son"...;)
 
I hope you really believe that after reading this whole thread.
Ask me in a week if anything has changed or if all views are not created equal.;)


Hi Dor,

Not all views are equal, but all can be voiced here as long as they are 1) on topic and 2) not a breach of the CoC.

You don't have to agree with the POVs expressed and you are welcome to post why you do or don't agree.

Please report any posts you think violate either of the two points above.


And, good to see you posting. I think you make some great contributions to the forum.
 
Gee, and I thought Revelation was a document just full of symbolism, containing much insight into cosmology, as well as soteriology. I was under the impression that if understood from the proper angle, it was as much Gospel as the four books that more commonly bear that moniker.

Silly me ... :p
 
Matthew chapter 24 also says: "But if that wicked servant says to himself, `My master is delayed,' and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eats and drinks with the drunken, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." (48-51)

That is why Wil and I and everyone are sometimes angry, because we have been beaten by fellow servants who've said to themselves 'My master is delayed'. They preached (and still preach) to everyone 'He's in the inner rooms!', or 'He's in the wilderness!'. They tell us 'Lo, here is the Christ!' or 'Lo, there he is!' But we were warned long ago, "as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man." Haven't you yourself been told repeatedly that Jesus is now in his kingdom, only just out of our reach? For some reason in 1914, he supposedly established a kingdom but people just don't realize it? Mee, you have not accepted the fact that when servants say to themselves 'My master has been delayed' that they start getting abusive and beating instead of feeding the sheep. Its a hard thing, but it is a fact. Or is it you that have you said to yourself 'My master has been delayed'?



But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be. matthew 24;46-51



it is a sad fact that some of the slaves did develop a wicked heart and even started to verbally abuse the faithful slaves .

and rather than waiting on the master for the revealing of understanding, they went out from the faithful ones and even became involved again with the spiritual drunkards.

yes there has been much verbally abusing that has gone on over the years .
and it is the FAITHFUL ones that have been in the fireing line


some among the faithful ones thought that in 1914 they would be going to Hesven at that point, and when it didnt happen as they thought it should they went out and did things very evil indeed.

yes the bible always comes true ,

but no worries ,the FAITHFUL have been blessed for their faithfulness and NOW the understanding is abundant indeed.


its good to wait because it sorts the real faithful ones out ,and the ones who are not real slaves are shown up for what they are .

they are an evil slave who are working in opposition to Jesus .

The expression "that evil slave" draws our attention to Jesus’ preceding words about the faithful and discreet slave. Yes, the "evil slave" came from the ranks of the faithful slave












Beware, brothers, for fear there should ever develop in any one of YOU a wicked heart lacking faith by drawing away from the living God; hebrews 3;12


yes as you mentioned , it is not a very good thing when the unfaithful ones do nothing better than abuse the faithful, instead of feeding the sheep along with the faithful ones.



yes in 1914 Jesus recieved his kingship in the heavens, but he has not yet come with his holy angels for JUDGMENT

that is for a future time, and no one knows the day or the hour, but one thing is for sure, we are living in the time of the end ,and 1914 was the

START OF THE LAST DAYS



In a comparable way, after the death of the apostles, "oppressive wolves" came from the ranks of anointed Christian elders.—Acts 20:29, 30.


yes the words of Jesus always come true .

we must also keep in mind the admonition recorded by the prophet Habakkuk:

"The vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late." (Habakkuk 2:3)



Even if that day may appear to delay from our imperfect viewpoint, we must remember that Jehovah is not slow. His day will come exactly on time, at an hour that humans do not expect.—Mark 13:33; 2 Peter 3:9, 10.



Emphasizing the importance of keeping in expectation of Jehovah’s day, Jesus warned that even some of his followers would lose their sense of urgency.

He foretold about them: "If ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity." (Matthew 24:48-51)


In contrast, the faithful and discreet slave class loyally keeps its sense of urgency. The slave class has kept on the watch and proved itself ready. Jesus has appointed it "over all his belongings" here on the earth.—Matthew 24:42-47.








 
Ironically, the events in Revelation seem to center on Israel as a nation. In fact, the 144,000 witnesses are of a supposed Jewish descent. What they will be witnessing about ought to be of interest to any serious scholar of apocalypical literature.

or even SPIRITUAL ISRAELand yes it is 144,000
 
that there will be cults and false prophets saying christ is here or there, or that they are christ or God or prophets with some special channel direct to God yet have a record of speaking falsely. also they will be a falling away from the gospel, as people look more for acceptance of a group or the world rather than believing that christ that came in such a humbled and lowly state could be God, and there is and will be much more effort put into denying Christ or even forgetting Him or thinking that man can be spiritual and perfected on his own without Him.
 
that there will be cults and false prophets saying christ is here or there, or that they are christ or God or prophets with some special channel direct to God yet have a record of speaking falsely. also they will be a falling away from the gospel, as people look more for acceptance of a group or the world rather than believing that christ that came in such a humbled and lowly state could be God, and there is and will be much more effort put into denying Christ or even forgetting Him or thinking that man can be spiritual and perfected on his own without Him.
Can you do us a favor and point out the scriptures that give us this "warning"?

Thanks

Q
 
Can you do us a favor and point out the scriptures that give us this "warning"?

Thanks

Q

They're the ones that say, "Look out for Jerusalem Cricket Syndrome sufferers! who think they are Jiminy Cricket and the cutest thing, God's appointed Conscience to the world of wooden-heads when all they is is big old potato bugs..

That said, I do have the Truth to give witness to from my special revelatory position revealing the identity of God and humanity's role in God's Cosmic Plan. ;)
 
They're the ones that say, "Look out for Jerusalem Cricket Syndrome sufferers! who think they are Jiminy Cricket and the cutest thing, God's appointed Conscience to the world of wooden-heads when all they is is big old potato bugs..

That said, I do have the Truth to give witness to from my special revelatory position revealing the identity of God and humanity's role in God's Cosmic Plan. ;)
The more appropriate response would have been, "I think you are mistaken, and these are my reasons why", then list them. Using Disney characatures in a metaphor in a flippant way is not condusive to any civil discussion on the topic at hand...:)

Q
 
The more appropriate response would have been, "I think you are mistaken, and these are my reasons why", then list them. Using Disney characatures in a metaphor in a flippant way is not condusive to any civil discussion on the topic at hand...:)

Q

Chill out, Quahom. That's your "appropriate response" and you aren't me. I tire of straight intellectual discussion with no comic relief so here and there I try to provide some. I will re, desist immediately from my ill-advised pursuits..:rolleyes:
 
Chill out, Quahom. That's your "appropriate response" and you aren't me. I tire of straight intellectual discussion with no comic relief so here and there I try to provide some. I will re, desist immediately from my ill-advised pursuits..:rolleyes:
Funny is funny, but not at the expense of someone else, or their beliefs...
 
That said, I do have the Truth to give witness to from my special revelatory position revealing the identity of God and humanity's role in God's Cosmic Plan. ;)

I had to read that sentence twice. :)
 
I agree that there is a lot of symbolism and imagery in the book of Revelation, but whenever anyone says that the book is symbolic, I have to ask what do you mean by that?

That the meaning of stuff like bowls and seals and so forth is unclear, and the message more about living life and warnings against complacency in faith than specific messages about particular countries, organizations, or world events.

I've read enough books claiming to know The Answers about what all the symbols in Revelations mean to last me a lifetime. I found them uninspired and uninspiring, mostly with the effect of creating fear and escapism among their readership, neither of which is taught by Christ.

At some point, I stopped reading the Bible as a whole and Revelations in particular as having a universal message- a One Answer as to what these bowls and seals and whatnot mean and whether the whore is a church or a country or whatever... and lifted up my reading to the Spirit with a plea for understanding what the message was that day, for me. What would this teach me? How could I become more Christ-like through the message? How could I take the lessons into my daily life?

How we to take the symbols metaphorically? What application does it have in our own lives? What is God telling us exactly?

I think the value of symbolism is its capacity to meet each person where they are at- that is, the variety of what symbols could mean allows such text to speak to each reader, inspired by the Spirit, in a direct and personal manner. The text becomes a "thin place" at which we meet God. The application comes not from other people telling us what something means and how we should believe, but rather through our own wrestling with the text, with our supplication to God for guidance by the Spirit, and our humility in admitting our struggles to ourself and to God. My experience is that in so doing, God reveals what we (individually) need to know from the text in order to grow closer to Him and to work in the world as the Body of Christ. It doesn't much matter if another person is given a different answer. If each were authentically focused on growing in Christ, I have faith that it would all work in accord with God's will, and there is no need for one single answer/meaning to every passage.

But if there is a message there from God, regardless of the difficulty of extracting it, we ought to give it a college try. Then there the promise of blessing for anyone who reads Revelation, confusion or not.

I completely agree. But I don't think there is a single meaning to Revelation. I don't think it's a history text of the future. To me, that would go against Christ's teachings to be focused on each day as it comes.

Is it not possible that the symbology is placed there to afford some protection on the mysteries of God until such a time as they will be revealed according to God's purpose and timing?

It's certainly possible, but then what is the point of speculating and having the conflicts about textual meaning rip Christianity apart? With various mega-churches claiming to have The One Answer and scoffing at the authenticity of other Christians, the danger in focusing too heavily on figuring everything out is clear. If the symbols are to protect a mystery, why try to unravel them? Why not just wait for the revelation of Revelation?

On the other hand, symbols can be powerful ways for individuals to meet God and to reflect on their own beliefs. So there is a usefulness to symbolic text even when it is unclear if it has a literal referent.

I'm going to post later my take. But one thing that I believe important is that any interpretation of Revelation must be studied in light of revelation that has become before and it must be in agreement. There are many parallels and hints that can be gleaned in the Old Testament books such as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Jeremiah, as well as the Gospels and the Epistles. I believe that the message is integrated throughout the whole Bible and it would be a worthy venture to attempt to extract what we can with the information we have available.

I agree. I also think it is helpful to study the OT books in light of the way Jewish scholars study them, given their heritage/origin. Further, I think the NT can be approached similarly. The question of what authentic early Christianity consisted of is a tough one, but I think important for these sorts of issues. Alternatively, one could forego that question and seek to be led by the Spirit directly. What is alarming to me is the large (and growing) population of Christians that seem to do neither, and rely on religious leaders to spoon-feed the meaning of text without any context or individual effort at all. I don't think that was ever the intent of early Christianity.

Having said that, I also agree that there has been abuse and attempts to control certain groups and sects using end-time prophecies. However, Scripture in general has been used that way, yet that ought not to take from away the message nor should we avoid it in light of those abuses.

I agree wholeheartedly. I do not advocate avoiding scripture. Quite the opposite, I adovocate disciplined personal study.
 
I believe that is a misnomer on Wil's part (or a generalization concerning all Christian churches in the US). The reality is the majority of churches in the US do not dwell incescently on the book of Revelation or the end times, but rather focus on the here and now, and how to live a Christ like life, "daily".

I think the question of majority has not been adequately assessed. The old "traditional" Christian churches- Catholicism, Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutheran... these tend to be focused on daily life, yes. However, people in the US are leaving many of these moderate/mainline churches for the poles- either leaving Christianity for "spiritual but not religious," Neo-Pagan, New Age/New Thought, etc. or alternatively leaving the traditional churches for the charismatic mega-churches that are claiming "conservativism" or "fundamentalism" but really are not traditional at all. Many of these mega-churches (to which I went to for years as a sort of "fieldwork") dwell most of the time on linking political events to Revelation, end times, and a narrow set of moral-ethical issues such as abortion and homosexuality, with little emphasis on others (such as poverty and social justice). Some of them make capitalism and materialism into a religion with prosperity doctrine. None I had gone to encouraged a focus on daily life, nor did they encourage individual study of scripture.

These churches are growing. Traditional churches are losing members. It's a cultural shift in the US that worries me. Like American politics, we are rapidly devolving in terms of public focus on self-education, critical thought, and deep personal ethics. We're a soundbite culture.

I don't think the problem is Christianity so much as cultural change that takes change within Christianity along with it. This is what I mean about Americans being manipulated and controlled, but not without their consent. We're most comfortable, as a whole, being told what to think, what to buy, how to feel happy and good about ourselves, and how to feel saved. We're all about convenience, new and improved versions of things, and feeling no pain or discomfort. I think these cultural trends have infiltrated US Christianity... so people like churches that have spoon-fed teachings, don't make them feel bad about things like poverty that would require self-sacrifice, like the idea that we're saved by a prayer and forgiven whether we work at bettering ourselves or not. People like churches that look good, have comfy seats and flashy electronics and bands. God forbid anyone be bored for a while and have to question why praying is boring. Or that they actually struggle to sing an old hymn. Much easier to simplify things, make it fit with pop culture, make it fun and exciting and media-rich... right? I mean, we're just improving on things, right? What real American likes the old version of stuff? Who sticks with last year's phone, computer, fashion? It's all about the new, the more convenient...

There ain't nothing about traditional Christianity that is convenient. :eek:
 
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