In that case, damnation would be God's fault, and you are portraying God as worse than Satan.
The myth of free will
- Thread starter winner08
- Start date
In that case, damnation would be God's fault, and you are portraying God as worse than Satan.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
BINGO!
Give this person the doorprize!
BTW, did I welcome you to Interfaith? Welcome Dogbrain.
Yes, and I was seconding your point. We are not holograms as some would argue...or if we are, then we have an element of "free radical" in us that makes us unpredictable (to God's delight, and sometimes, dismay). But at least we aren't boring...
I think you are attempting to oversimplify.
First, predestination...which includes preordinated will...negates the Ten Commandments and any need at all for moral and ethical training. In other words, there would be *NO* good and *NO* evil, everything would be fair game. Murder would be fair game, rape would be fair game, theft would be fair game...yet the Bible and most religious texts I am aware of clearly state that these are not fair game.
Second, because our will is limited by circumstances does not negate "free will." Why would I use some obscure ancient Chinese trading contract or a Roman concrete recipe to make a decision today about whether or not to clean my room? You are avoiding the obvious by attempting to confuse with irrelevent details.
Third, G-d (in the Bible) makes it pretty clear that it is an invitation, a choice (otherwise defined as free will), to "listen to Him" or not. While He may provide opportunity for some to "come to Him," it is pretty obvious to anybody with a hint of cross-cultural observation that this is not a given. This premise is based solely from a Western / Christian perspective, completely ignoring a laundry list of other valid cultural perspectives, some of which not only do not recognize the Christian G-d but deny His existence outright.
Fourth, and most importantly, love is nothing if it is not freely given.
Let me say that again to drive it home: love is NOTHING if it is not freely given.
G-d freely gave us love, and He allows us the freedom to return that love, or not.
If our choices are not free, then the love we give to G-d is meaningless. G-d can create all the little minions He desires to march in circles around His throne mouthing "I love you G-d, I love you G-d" for eternity, and it will not be real love.
The love that is freely given, and freely returned, is true love. Anything else is not love.
BTW, welcome to Interfaith, winner.
Ok jauntoo3, I see here that you really threw your opinion in. Ok ;that's fine we all have a right to our own opinion. But I don't see where you back it up with any proof. proof being the word of God(suripture).
#1). I am sorry I just a simple man with simple beliefs I believe in the word of God. I just don't know how to even start with your #1 comment. What does predestin have to do with not following the 10 commanments? If you believe in predestinity then the Lord puts you in certain situations and you make the choices you make so thaere was no other choice but the one you made. Murder, stealing, rape, if it is preordain then you have no choice except the one you made.
#2) Man here we go again I am sorry again but I don't unerstand what your talking about here.
#3 Giving love freely. Yes once again One can not believe that God is soverign. He does not change. He knowes the end from the beginning and that God has a pllan for each and everyone of us. then believe in free will or free choice. Why you ask. because if every human had free will and free choice thenhow in the world could God get anything done. How can God have a plan for mankind and yet God does not change and God knows the end from the beginning. yet humans have free will to change there mind thousands of times a day. That would mean God would have to change His plans for ever human ever time we changed our mind. NO WAY. Please don't tell me that God changes or He dosn't know the end from the beginning. You can't believe in preordaine and free will can co exsist. it's an oxymoron.
Darren
No I am not. first of all there is no damnation no one is going to hell
second. God ;created ;all thing He created Light and DARKNESS
He created good and EVIL.
Did you hear that Good AND EVIL
I did not say God was Evil I said He created Evil. If God created ALL then He created Satan and Satan is EVIL. Therefore God created Evil. So take you should get your facts straight before you accuse someone of such a serious charge. Look up some scripture and it will confrim everthing I have said on the site. That's if YOU believe in the WORD of GOD.
Darren
Where are you getting this crap from, not from me. It seems to me some of yall just don't understand. I NEVER SAID WE DON"T MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES. I said that the choices we make are CAUSED by SOMETHING. That is why we make the choices that we make. MAN how hard is that to understand. CAUSE and EFFECT It is the LAW of The UNIVERSE.
Darren
Sorry I am not a teacher I try to explain this as plainly as possible. My twins get this and there only 6.
Look if anyone of you are really interested in the TRUTH and not this man made christian doctrain then leave me a private message and I will give you the info you need. I will hook you up with the real bible truths. I am not doing a good job explaining this stuff to yall but I know someone who will.
Thanks, Darren
Thanks, Darren
ChristineES
Follower of Yeshua
But what would be the purpose of crimes such as rape and murder? If everything is destined by God then God would be choosing for a woman to suffer a rape who may even become pregnant and a family to mourn the loss of a loved one. I know that God works in mysterious ways, but I can't seem Him deliberately causing that kind of pain.
dailogue is the best
New member
I think I ve understood some of what you want to say, Darren. ( I wish I really ve
)Let me help you in clarifying your idea about free will that some members here find it hard to grasp.
In my opinion, Darren doesnt want to say that man isnt free-willed. NO. Darren simply wants to say that man's free will is limited. So, here we may discuss total free will vs limited free will, and not free will vs "omitted" will. I think we all agree with Darren in this sense. Any choice we make is done according to special, limited circumstances, esp according to one's knowledge/ ignorance factors. And it happened that we regretted some past actions because of our lack of knowledge.
Actually, this fact brings us to a very important fact, which is that we should NEVER EVER be proud of ourselves in the sense that we stop seeking for knoweldge and truth to take the right action. Since we have limited free-will, we should ALWAYS be connected with God,who is the only total free-willed, to guide us towards the right path despite the limited choices we have in front of ourselves.
Our affirmation of our limited free will helps in deepning our relation with God, and in not ceasing supllicating Him for more insights, knowledge and guidance.
I think I ve understood some of what you want to say, Darren. ( I wish I really ve
Let me help you in clarifying your idea about free will that some members here find it hard to grasp.
In my opinion, Darren doesnt want to say that man isnt free-willed. NO. Darren simply wants to say that man's free will is limited. So, here we may discuss total free will vs limited free will, and not free will vs "omitted" will. I think we all agree with Darren in this sense. Any choice we make is done according to special, limited circumstances, esp according to one's knowledge/ ignorance factors. And it happened that we regretted some past actions because of our lack of knowledge.
Actually, this fact brings us to a very important fact, which is that we should NEVER EVER be proud of ourselves in the sense that we stop seeking for knoweldge and truth to take the right action. Since we have limited free-will, we should ALWAYS be connected with God,who is the only total free-willed, to guide us towards the right path despite the limited choices we have in front of ourselves.
Our affirmation of our limited free will helps in deepning our relation with God, and in not ceasing supllicating Him for more insights, knowledge and guidance.
This is what Jesus said about free will,.
When Jesus was in the Mount. the night before His death Jesus asked,
Father let this cup pass from me. well we all know what happen next.
If Jesus had free will wouldn't you think He would had passed that pain and suffering and death. Jesus was human and He had all the human emotions we have. He wanted to live but knew it was not His will was going to be done. Jesus Knew His Father's will was going to be done.
In the Bible where God told Moses go to the egyptain leader and tell him to let my people go. well if God was all so powerfull and sent those plauges to egypt and destroyed all there live stock, food and first born. Well after the first 9plauges He was going to let God;s people go he had enough his people were starving and dieing from hunger and diseases painfull sores they had enough. What did God say he was going to do, Good said I WILL harden his heart so that he won't let my people go then I the Lord will send the 10th plauge and kill the first born of egypt so that tjey may know I am The Lord. Pharro wanted to let Gods people go but it wasn't his choice(his will)It was the LOrds choice (will to harden his heart so that he would not let them go. can yousee here where there is no free will there is opnly God's will. I cango on and on the botton line is There is no free will free being unrestrained will will that has no cause for choosing. No matter what choices one makes it is caused by something in order for you to make that choice. I don't mean limit free will that is an oxymoron it can not be. CAUSE and EFFECT. that is all there is Something or someone causes you to chooce the way you do at that moment in time
LISTEN we make choices it is just not free. our choices are (caused) caused by something or someone.
YOU choose to write and debate me you choose why what (caused) you to write this? You disagree with me that is the (cause) that disagreement is what caused you to choose to debate. you choice was not free it was caused. This is not rocket science.
Jesus said I can not do anything of my own, Only through the Father can I do the things that I do.
Jesus said NO one can come (choose) to the father except trhrough me.
In John I believe it's 6:44 Only Jesus can draw one th God. The correct translation of the word draw in (drag).
Darren
PS let me clear on what I wanted to say what I am trying to say.
mam has NO free will
man has NO free choice
someone or something will ALWAYS CAUSE you to make the decssion you make
(ALWAYS)
Thanks for the attempt of trying to help me but no disrespect but I don;t need you or anyone to say waht I am trying to say. I said what I ment to say. Anyway I have someone that speaks for me and He has more wisdom than any of us.
a computer makes choices
a computer has no free will
man makes choices
man has no free will
darrren
He also IS GOD and made choices as both human and God.
If there is no free will, then there is no moral responsibility, and it is God's fault that people are damned, making God worse than Satan.
Hmmm, I'd have to agree here. I mean, if a common man can choose to throw himself on a grenade to spare his friends, why couldn't Jesus throw himself on the destruction of sin, to spare us?
17th Angel
לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
- Messages
- 9,437
- Reaction score
- 10
- Points
- 0
This account in Exodus.. Interesting thoughts, but I see it in a different light... It isn't showing man has no free will... Example... Moses was supposed to speak to the people? His brother ended up doing the speaking for him? He choose to pass it to his brother to do because he wasn't confident enough to begin with... That is an act of free will, it was also an act of free will that made him go there was nothing that forced him to...
I think the story in Exodus helps to draw on the conclusion of sticking to your guns, being determined, to obey YHWH will no matter what, also to show that no one has the equal strength, power and ability as YHWH, even though the Pharaoh's magicians and such tried..... They is fail.
Anyway, I don't think this is a lesson of "there is no free will." There are other lessons here being taught... I feel.
Aaron was a natural orator, and Moses stuttered...smart move between the two I should think.This account in Exodus.. Interesting thoughts, but I see it in a different light... It isn't showing man has no free will... Example... Moses was supposed to speak to the people? His brother ended up doing the speaking for him? He choose to pass it to his brother to do because he wasn't confident enough to begin with... That is an act of free will, it was also an act of free will that made him go there was nothing that forced him to...
I think the story in Exodus helps to draw on the conclusion of sticking to your guns, being determined, to obey YHWH will no matter what, also to show that no one has the equal strength, power and ability as YHWH, even though the Pharaoh's magicians and such tried..... They is fail.
Anyway, I don't think this is a lesson of "there is no free will." There are other lessons here being taught... I feel.
17th Angel
לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
- Messages
- 9,437
- Reaction score
- 10
- Points
- 0
Indeed it was And YHWH allowed him to use his free will to do this... So I cannot see where there is no free will in this account... Nothing grabed Moses hard by the wrist and dragged him up that mountain... Only his mind and his own two feet took him up there.
And YHWH allowed him to use his free will to do this... So I cannot see where there is no free will in this account... Nothing grabed Moses hard by the wrist and dragged him up that mountain... Only his mind and his own two feet took him up there.Please everbody listen to what I am saying. L I S T E N C A R E F U L L Y!!
I said free will is a myth. A myth made up by man.
OK one more time wait ,yall tell me what does free mean?
a. to relieve from constraint or restraint.
Everytime one makes a choice there is a reason why you made that choice. are yall still with me?
whatever choice you make there is something or someone causeing you to make that choice. (how about now)? cause and effect.
That is all that it means, someone or something causes you to make that choice you made. (THAT"S IT)!
Don't try to read between the lines. Just let the sentence interped itself.
If something or someone influence's a choice you made then it can not be a free choice, can it. (are yall still here)?
So class let's go over this one last time.
Your driving to the store it's right down the street,3 blocks away. you back out your driveway you go straight for one blk. you take a right at the stop sign. Then go one more blk and take a left, and there is the store. This time they had a car wreck at the last stop sign, so you had to detour and go right instead of left. You made the choice to take the detour and take the right instead of the left. (understand)?
The choice was yours to make therefore you are responsible not God. You could have just went back home. Instead you chose to keep on going by taking that right at the detour.
Cause and effect.
the cause for you choosing to take the detour was the wreck.
when something causes you to make that choice it can not be a free choice. (I hope yall are still with me).
Remember what I said at the beginning of my reply? free will is a myth, free choice is a myth.
it sooooooooooo simple. KISS (keep it simple stupid). If your choice or will is influenced by ANYONE or ANYTHIG in any way shape or form then it Can not be free. There's no (two) ways about it.
OK I tried to explain it as simply as possible.
1. God makes the circumstances we find ourselves in every moment of everyday. throughout that day we make all the choices. So we are responsible for our choices not God. God just creates the situations WE do the choosing. How can I say that any clearer. God creates the situation that we are in, (WE) do the choosing.
Ok, thanks everbody for this in dept discussion. I hope someone got something out of this. I know two things for sure.
1. there is a God
2. I am not He.
Thank all of you for a great time, I hope ta see ya on the flip side.
Darren
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I think we are given free will but when we choose to accept the gift of Salvation then we are removed from free will and placed into Gods will.
The tricky part and one of the mysteries the bible claims is that God knows who will accept and who wont. Hes God... He knows everything. Hes outside of time because He invented time... he knows past present and future at the same time.. literally. Im comforted to know that he knew me before I was in my mothers womb and that I would be His and no matter what I do to screw it up He wont lose me because He even knows the number of hairs on my head.
The tricky part and one of the mysteries the bible claims is that God knows who will accept and who wont. Hes God... He knows everything. Hes outside of time because He invented time... he knows past present and future at the same time.. literally. Im comforted to know that he knew me before I was in my mothers womb and that I would be His and no matter what I do to screw it up He wont lose me because He even knows the number of hairs on my head.
Apologies Darren,
I forgot to pay for the class.
Did you hand out a syllabus?
Do I have any homework?
Is everything you write to be taken as gospel or are we allowed to think for ourselves?
Will this be on the final?
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I was just thinking that also wil lol