All i said is that we do not posess free will or free choices.
In that case, damnation would be God's fault, and you are portraying God as worse than Satan.
All i said is that we do not posess free will or free choices.
If there is no free will, we do not make our own choices, and therefore have no responsibility for our actions.
Yes, and I was seconding your point. We are not holograms as some would argue...or if we are, then we have an element of "free radical" in us that makes us unpredictable (to God's delight, and sometimes, dismay). But at least we aren't boring...The ponit I was tring to make was that he became aware of what was going on. Beyond the will of the machine and people that controled him.
I think you are attempting to oversimplify.
First, predestination...which includes preordinated will...negates the Ten Commandments and any need at all for moral and ethical training. In other words, there would be *NO* good and *NO* evil, everything would be fair game. Murder would be fair game, rape would be fair game, theft would be fair game...yet the Bible and most religious texts I am aware of clearly state that these are not fair game.
Second, because our will is limited by circumstances does not negate "free will." Why would I use some obscure ancient Chinese trading contract or a Roman concrete recipe to make a decision today about whether or not to clean my room? You are avoiding the obvious by attempting to confuse with irrelevent details.
Third, G-d (in the Bible) makes it pretty clear that it is an invitation, a choice (otherwise defined as free will), to "listen to Him" or not. While He may provide opportunity for some to "come to Him," it is pretty obvious to anybody with a hint of cross-cultural observation that this is not a given. This premise is based solely from a Western / Christian perspective, completely ignoring a laundry list of other valid cultural perspectives, some of which not only do not recognize the Christian G-d but deny His existence outright.
Fourth, and most importantly, love is nothing if it is not freely given.
Let me say that again to drive it home: love is NOTHING if it is not freely given.
G-d freely gave us love, and He allows us the freedom to return that love, or not.
If our choices are not free, then the love we give to G-d is meaningless. G-d can create all the little minions He desires to march in circles around His throne mouthing "I love you G-d, I love you G-d" for eternity, and it will not be real love.
The love that is freely given, and freely returned, is true love. Anything else is not love.
BTW, welcome to Interfaith, winner.
In that case, damnation would be God's fault, and you are portraying God as worse than Satan.
BINGO!
Give this person the doorprize!
BTW, did I welcome you to Interfaith? Welcome Dogbrain.
Who believes that there is no such thing as free will. That the rule of law effects everything and everyone. The rule of law when dealing with free will or free choice are as followed. Every choice we make is caused by something. Cause and effect. Plain and simple. The Lord cause's our situations and we choose. One can not,, not do God's Will. Whatever the situation is we choose according to God's Will. There can not be any other choice. If one believes that God is all powerful and knows the end from the beginning, that He is a soveregn God, then His will will always be done.
Darren
I think I ve understood some of what you want to say, Darren. ( I wish I really ve)
Let me help you in clarifying your idea about free will that some members here find it hard to grasp.
In my opinion, Darren doesnt want to say that man isnt free-willed. NO. Darren simply wants to say that man's free will is limited. So, here we may discuss total free will vs limited free will, and not free will vs "omitted" will. I think we all agree with Darren in this sense. Any choice we make is done according to special, limited circumstances, esp according to one's knowledge/ ignorance factors. And it happened that we regretted some past actions because of our lack of knowledge.
Actually, this fact brings us to a very important fact, which is that we should NEVER EVER be proud of ourselves in the sense that we stop seeking for knoweldge and truth to take the right action. Since we have limited free-will, we should ALWAYS be connected with God,who is the only total free-willed, to guide us towards the right path despite the limited choices we have in front of ourselves.
Our affirmation of our limited free will helps in deepning our relation with God, and in not ceasing supllicating Him for more insights, knowledge and guidance.
If Jesus had free will wouldn't you think He would had passed that pain and suffering and death. Jesus was human and He had all the human emotions we have.
Where are you getting this crap from, not from me. It seems to me some of yall just don't understand. I NEVER SAID WE DON"T MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES. I said that the choices we make are CAUSED by SOMETHING. That is why we make the choices that we make. MAN how hard is that to understand. CAUSE and EFFECT It is the LAW of The UNIVERSE.
Darren
Sorry I am not a teacher I try to explain this as plainly as possible. My twins get this and there only 6.
Hmmm, I'd have to agree here. I mean, if a common man can choose to throw himself on a grenade to spare his friends, why couldn't Jesus throw himself on the destruction of sin, to spare us?He also IS GOD and made choices as both human and God.
If there is no free will, then there is no moral responsibility, and it is God's fault that people are damned, making God worse than Satan.
In the Bible where God told Moses go to the egyptain leader and tell him to let my people go.
Aaron was a natural orator, and Moses stuttered...smart move between the two I should think.This account in Exodus.. Interesting thoughts, but I see it in a different light... It isn't showing man has no free will... Example... Moses was supposed to speak to the people? His brother ended up doing the speaking for him? He choose to pass it to his brother to do because he wasn't confident enough to begin with... That is an act of free will, it was also an act of free will that made him go there was nothing that forced him to...
I think the story in Exodus helps to draw on the conclusion of sticking to your guns, being determined, to obey YHWH will no matter what, also to show that no one has the equal strength, power and ability as YHWH, even though the Pharaoh's magicians and such tried..... They is fail.
Anyway, I don't think this is a lesson of "there is no free will." There are other lessons here being taught... I feel.
He also IS GOD and made choices as both human and God.
If there is no free will, then there is no moral responsibility, and it is God's
fault that people are damned, making God worse than Satan.
Apologies Darren,Please everbody listen to what I am saying. L I S T E N C A R E F U L L Y!!...
So class let's go over this one last time.
....OK I tried to explain it as simply as possible.
Darren