The myth of free will

winner08 said:
Please everbody listen to what I am saying. L I S T E N C A R E F U L L Y!!

I said free will is a myth. A myth made up by man.

OK one more time wait ,yall tell me what does free mean?
a. to relieve from constraint or restraint.

Everytime one makes a choice there is a reason why you made that choice. are yall still with me?

whatever choice you make there is something or someone causeing you to make that choice. (how about now)? cause and effect.

That is all that it means, someone or something causes you to make that choice you made. (THAT"S IT)!

Don't try to read between the lines. Just let the sentence interped itself.
If something or someone influence's a choice you made then it can not be a free choice, can it. (are yall still here)?

So class let's go over this one last time.

Your driving to the store it's right down the street,3 blocks away. you back out your driveway you go straight for one blk. you take a right at the stop sign. Then go one more blk and take a left, and there is the store. This time they had a car wreck at the last stop sign, so you had to detour and go right instead of left. You made the choice to take the detour and take the right instead of the left. (understand)?

The choice was yours to make therefore you are responsible not God. You could have just went back home. Instead you chose to keep on going by taking that right at the detour.
Cause and effect.
the cause for you choosing to take the detour was the wreck.
when something causes you to make that choice it can not be a free choice. (I hope yall are still with me).

Remember what I said at the beginning of my reply? free will is a myth, free choice is a myth.

it sooooooooooo simple. KISS (keep it simple stupid). If your choice or will is influenced by ANYONE or ANYTHIG in any way shape or form then it Can not be free. There's no (two) ways about it.

OK I tried to explain it as simply as possible.

1. God makes the circumstances we find ourselves in every moment of everyday. throughout that day we make all the choices. So we are responsible for our choices not God. God just creates the situations WE do the choosing. How can I say that any clearer. God creates the situation that we are in, (WE) do the choosing.

Ok, thanks everbody for this in dept discussion. I hope someone got something out of this. I know two things for sure.
1. there is a God
2. I am not He.

Thank all of you for a great time, I hope ta see ya on the flip side.

Darren
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Cause and effect is not a pre-determiner of choice. Indeed choice is often a determiner of cause and effect.

Man is born with the ability to make moral choices, and he is responsible for those choices. Adam and Eve had the ability to choose obedience, or disobedience. They already knew what the results of their choice would be, and were held accountable for those choices. (Genesis 3)

Their choices resulted in creating a cause and effect situation for them.

As far as your accident example, well some would turn left, right, go back home. But then some would sit their and wait, while others would go to assist at the accident.

The mountain ranges standing in front of pioneers was not a cause. The choice of the pioneers to tackle and pass the mountain ranges was made before attempting to cross them. The cause and effect (tackling the mountains and getting over them) was a result of choice, not the other way around.

There are many passages in the bible which specifically state that man has choice hence free will.

Fatalism is not a scriptural concept (except perhaps in Islam).

Soldiers in prisoner of war camps who refuse to have their wills broken by their captors, is definitely and exercise in "free will". The do not accept any of the choices they are offered by their keepers, and instead choose to do something the captors did not think was possible.

This discussion reminds me something a bit of "circular logic".

Cause and effect determines choice...vs. choice determines cause and effect.

In any event free will is not a myth, and neither is choice.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Aaron was a natural orator, and Moses stuttered...smart move between the two I should think.
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, That is a good theory but of couse with all due respect I can not agree.
First of all Moses did not have a choice but to go to pharaoh and tell him to let God's people go. (if one believes that God's Will is always done) Then Moses was going to do this no matter what. He did not have a choice.

Once again only if and IF ONLY one believe's in God's sovereignty ()self governed, suprembeing,( knowing the end from the beginning) this part is very important.knowing the end from the beginning, If one believes God knows all then You must believe that God knew before hand that it was to be Arron who did the speaking not Moses. Moses just didn't give the Jobv to Arron of his own free will. God used Moses as the symbol. The symbol of God. The hebrew people knew as long as they could see Moses they knew God was in there presents and felt confident that all would be ok, even at there weakest monment. Remember that the hebrew's lived in Egypt for over 300 yrs. so they were pretty indoctrainated with the egyptians belief's.

You youself said that God's will is stronger than any man's will. that is why pharaoh would have let God's people go the first time Arron asked. But he did not let them go. Why because Pharaoh's heart was harden by God. Why, to show that they were God special people and to prove to all involed that HE was more powerfull than any of their gods. Egypt had many many gods.

Let see where we are at.
1. God preordained) Arron to be the speaker and Moses to be the symbol.
2)God harden pharaohs heart in order to show the hebrews that He was the only true God, their God, the one and only God ,because they had many gods in Egypt so God wanted to prove to them that He was the only true God. By hardening Pharaohs heart God was able to bring down the rest of the plauges and so when the 10th plauge came all pharaoh wanted was for Gods people to be gone.

What happen after they left? They cornerd themselves in the desert with the sea behined them and pharaoh was comming down on them in oreder to kill them. they were scared and cried out to moses, And Moses said STILL you don't believe. God parted the sea. and they were saved.
 
humans were created with free will.

Do you realize what a precious gift that is?

God has made countless animals, and these are driven largely by instinct. (Proverbs 30:24)

Man has made some robots that can be programmed to follow every command.

Would we be happy if God had made us like that?

No, we are glad to have the freedom to make choices about what kind of person to become, what course of life to pursue, what friendships to form, and so on. We love to have a measure of freedom, and that is what God wants us to enjoy.



Jehovah is not interested in service performed under compulsion. (2 Corinthians 9:7)

To illustrate: What would please a parent more—a child’s saying "I love you" because he is told to say it or his saying it freely from the heart?

So the question is, How will you use the free will that Jehovah has given you?

Satan, Adam, and Eve made the worst possible use of free will. They rejected Jehovah God.

What will you do?​
 
winner08 said:
Please everbody listen to what I am saying. L I S T E N C A R E F U L L Y!!

I said free will is a myth. A myth made up by man.

OK one more time wait ,yall tell me what does free mean?
a. to relieve from constraint or restraint.

Everytime one makes a choice there is a reason why you made that choice. are yall still with me?
Click to expand...
Yes, the reason why you make a choice should be intelligence. Notice how the word intelligence is derived from from inter- "between" + legere "choose, pick out, read"? (ie, select)
-source-


whatever choice you make there is something or someone causeing you to make that choice. (how about now)? cause and effect.

That is all that it means, someone or something causes you to make that choice you made. (THAT"S IT)!

Don't try to read between the lines. Just let the sentence interped itself.
If something or someone influence's a choice you made then it can not be a free choice, can it. (are yall still here)?

Darren
Click to expand...
If you have no information to make a choice, that is more aptly called a blind choice, or a stab in the dark. Compare the etymology of the word free:
free
O.E. freo "free, exempt from, not in bondage," also "noble, joyful," from P.Gmc. *frijaz (cf. M.H.G. vri, Ger. frei, Du. vrij, Goth. freis "free"), from PIE *prijos "dear, beloved" (cf. Skt. priyah "own, dear, beloved," priyate "loves;" O.C.S. prijati "to help," prijatelji "friend;" Welsh rhydd "free"). The adv. is from O.E. freon, freogan "to free, love." The primary sense seems to have been "beloved, friend, to love;" which in some languages (notably Gmc. and Celtic) developed also a sense of "free," perhaps from the terms "beloved" or "friend" being applied to the free members of one's clan (as opposed to slaves, cf. L. liberi, meaning both "free" and "children"). Cf. Goth. frijon "to love;" O.E. freod "affection, friendship," friga "love," friðu "peace;" O.N. friðr, Ger. Friede "peace;" O.E. freo "wife;" O.N. Frigg "wife of Odin," lit. "beloved" or "loving;" M.L.G. vrien "to take to wife, Du. vrijen, Ger. freien "to woo." Sense of "given without cost" is 1585, from notion of "free of cost." Of nations, "not subject to foreign rule or to despotism," it is recorded from 1375. Freedman "manumitted slave" first recorded 1601. Colloquial freeloader first recorded 1930s; free fall is from 1919, originally of parachutists; free-hand is from 1862; free-thinker is from 1692. Freebie dates back to 1942 as freeby, perhaps as early as 1900. Free-for-all "mass brawl" (in which anyone may participate) first recorded 1881. Freebase (n. and v.) in ref. to cocaine first recorded 1980.
-source-
​
Notice the connection between the word free and its roots in love and friend? Freedom does not mean anarchy, nor does it mean despotism. Freedom is rooted in love and friendship. (I would certainly hope that God is rooted in love, rather than despotism, and that God's love for us is not a myth.)
 
winner08 said:
#3 Giving love freely. Yes once again One can not believe that God is soverign. He does not change. He knowes the end from the beginning and that God has a pllan for each and everyone of us. then believe in free will or free choice. Why you ask. because if every human had free will and free choice thenhow in the world could God get anything done. How can God have a plan for mankind and yet God does not change and God knows the end from the beginning. yet humans have free will to change there mind thousands of times a day. That would mean God would have to change His plans for ever human ever time we changed our mind. NO WAY. Please don't tell me that God changes or He dosn't know the end from the beginning. You can't believe in preordaine and free will can co exsist. it's an oxymoron.

Darren
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Just because you don't understand how God accomplishes this does not mean that God is bound by your limited intelligence. (Remember, intelligence is derived from "choose between.") God is more intelligent than any of us, and I'm sure God would have no problem resolving this koan.

Now regarding free: the word free is derived from love and friend. Read 1 Corinthians 13, and notice how it says love never fails? Do you think that this might be how God resolves this koan?
1 Corinthians 13:
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
​
Notice how it is not prophesy or knowledge that endures: it is faith, hope, and love that endures, and the greatest of those is love.

If you don't have faith, hope, and love, how can you expect to overcome this koan? If you can't overcome this koan, it doesn't mean that God cannot, for God demonstrated His love by sending us Jesus.
 
If... We had free will, god would have to change his will...? Where on earth do you get your references from? That's like saying... I am going to use my free will to break the law (mans laws) So the police, and the courts and the prisons and the judges are going to have to change their will to suit me.... Nah don't work that way, You either fit in with the big picture (YHWH's will) Or you don't simple as that... His will changes for none... Yet we still have free will! :eek:
 
Alex P said:
If... We had free will, god would have to change his will...? Where on earth do you get your references from? That's like saying... I am going to use my free will to break the law (mans laws) So the police, and the courts and the prisons and the judges are going to have to change their will to suit me.... Nah don't work that way, You either fit in with the big picture (YHWH's will) Or you don't simple as that... His will changes for none... Yet we still have free will! :eek:
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It's God's will that we have freewill.

Actually, I just think we are on a very long leash. Sometimes God needs to jerk us back.
 
If God is omniscient and omnipotent, there can be no "free will" within Creation or God isn't God but a lesser deity with limited powers.

Having had my religious conversion experience being one in which my world became clearly seen as "maya", illusion, for three full days, I have no doubt at all that this world has been scripted from beginning to end and we ourselves live out archetypal dramas to educate our souls for entry into the World to Come, Paradise.

Here is the hidden wisdom of this spiritual truth in Psalms;

"Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all are written
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them."
--Ps. 139:16

We cannot see the future but God can and sends us prophets to pilot the Ship of Light.
 
sonoman said:
I have no doubt at all that this world has been scripted from beginning to end and we ourselves live out archetypal dramas to educate our souls for entry into the World to Come, Paradise.
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Did God script the lives of Stalin, Hitler, the Khmer Rouge, Nero, Charles Manson, Wayne Gacy, and the Green River Killer?
 
sonoman said:
If God is omniscient and omnipotent, there can be no "free will" within Creation
Click to expand...

If there is no free will within Creation, then God is the author and cause of all evil. If there is no free will within Creation, then God is the one responsible for all evil. If there is no free will within Creation, then God is the ultimate evil.
 
winner08 said:
, That is a good theory but of couse with all due respect I can not agree.
First of all Moses did not have a choice but to go to pharaoh and tell him to let God's people go. (if one believes that God's Will is always done) Then Moses was going to do this no matter what. He did not have a choice.

Once again only if and IF ONLY one believe's in God's sovereignty ()self governed, suprembeing,( knowing the end from the beginning) this part is very important.knowing the end from the beginning, If one believes God knows all then You must believe that God knew before hand that it was to be Arron who did the speaking not Moses. Moses just didn't give the Jobv to Arron of his own free will. God used Moses as the symbol. The symbol of God. The hebrew people knew as long as they could see Moses they knew God was in there presents and felt confident that all would be ok, even at there weakest monment. Remember that the hebrew's lived in Egypt for over 300 yrs. so they were pretty indoctrainated with the egyptians belief's.

You youself said that God's will is stronger than any man's will. that is why pharaoh would have let God's people go the first time Arron asked. But he did not let them go. Why because Pharaoh's heart was harden by God. Why, to show that they were God special people and to prove to all involed that HE was more powerfull than any of their gods. Egypt had many many gods.

Let see where we are at.
1. God preordained) Arron to be the speaker and Moses to be the symbol.
2)God harden pharaohs heart in order to show the hebrews that He was the only true God, their God, the one and only God ,because they had many gods in Egypt so God wanted to prove to them that He was the only true God. By hardening Pharaohs heart God was able to bring down the rest of the plauges and so when the 10th plauge came all pharaoh wanted was for Gods people to be gone.

What happen after they left? They cornerd themselves in the desert with the sea behined them and pharaoh was comming down on them in oreder to kill them. they were scared and cried out to moses, And Moses said STILL you don't believe. God parted the sea. and they were saved.
Click to expand...
First of all, Moses was making excuses with God on why he couldn't speak (fear and lack of confidence in his own abilities). God did become a bit irked with Moses and reminded him that Aaron had no trouble speaking before an audience. So Moses, buoyed up with that revelation, instructed Aaron on what to say. Even here, God gave Moses a choice to do his will, or to not do his will. But instead of commanding Moses to "do it anyway", knowing the heart of Moses, he instead opened the man's eyes to possibilities, which allowed Moses to take heart and feel more confident in the task he was being asked to do.

God is not a puppet-Master. He's a father that wants his children to grow, and gives them every opportunity to grow. But in the end, we choose whether to take advantage of that opportunity to grow.

Unfortunately, the scriptures in the Bible that specfically refer to God telling of man's "free will", do not seem to be registering with you Darren. Am I to believe you, or scripture "wherein God is specific about man's free will"?

I think I have to go with God on this one.

v/r

Q
 
Dogbrain said:
If there is no free will within Creation, then God is the author and cause of all evil. If there is no free will within Creation, then God is the one responsible for all evil. If there is no free will within Creation, then God is the ultimate evil.
Click to expand...

Creation evolves and so does humanity and humanity's conceptualization of the Godhead.
 
sonoman said:
Creation evolves and so does humanity and humanity's conceptualization of the Godhead.
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We "conceived" God?

I thought the questions that man asks himself are:

Who am I?
What is my purpose?
Why am I the way I am?
When will I understand?
Where am I going?
How do I move on?

Not, "how do I create one superior to me?"

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
We "conceived" God?

I thought the questions that man asks himself are:

Who am I?
What is my purpose?
Why am I the way I am?
When will I understand?
Where am I going?
How do I move on?

Not, "how do I create one superior to me?"

v/r


Q
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What? You think we still believe in spirits of trees or the dead go to the moon? Our idea of God evolves as we mature in knowledge.
 
sonoman said:
What? You think we still believe in spirits of trees or the dead go to the moon? Our idea of God evolves as we mature in knowledge.
Click to expand...
Which begin with:

Who
What
Where
When
Why
How

I don't recall sighting tree spirits or the moon as a resting place...

On the other hand, maybe the moon is made of cheese and tomb stones, and trees do throw apples at scarecrows that insult them...

it's possible, cause I saw it on TV... :eek:
 
winner08 said:
Every choice we make is caused by something. Cause and effect. Plain and simple. The Lord cause's our situations and we choose. One can not,, not do God's Will. Whatever the situation is we choose according to God's Will. There can not be any other choice.
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OK, so G-d tempted (note: seduced, and all that implies) Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

G-d led Cain to slay Abel?

G-d perverted the whole world so He could destroy it and save Noah and family in a flood?

G-d led Nimrod and company to build the tower of Babel so He could confuse the languages?

G-d was pleased at the corruption in Sodom and Gomorrah, and that is why He destroyed those cities?

You wanted references, you got 'em.

How are these examples of G-d's will as He fully intended? I will be happy if you only focus on Noah, and the reason given for the flood...seems to me if all those people were doing G-d's will, then He is a petty tyrant at best to destroy all of them for doing what He wanted them to do.


winner08 said:
If one believes that God is all powerful and knows the end from the beginning, that He is a soveregn God, then His will will always be done.
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These are three distinct issues, none of which follows the other logically.

winner08 said:
Therefore every decssion we make has already been predetermind by God's Will As in the Our Father prayer. His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
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There is a huge difference between seeking G-d's will in a matter, and presuming one is acting in G-d's will automatically "because His will will always be done."

But then, I'm just a simple man too.
 
Free will is actually not the most descriptive phrase. We did not choose to be what we are. Our choices are expressions of ourselves, so think of us as numbers, the choices we make as our properties, our entire lives a summation. Each number fits into its place, with characteristics that are an expression of that number. A number simply is a number. A personal choice expresses what we are, regardless of what made us. A person is responsible for their actions, as no one else can be -- as only certain numbers do certain things. I make choices according to what I am, and that is the limit of my freedom.

I haven't fully read the thread, yet. Sorry.
 
Dream said:
Free will is actually not the most descriptive phrase. We did not choose to be what we are. Our choices are expressions of ourselves, so think of us as numbers, the choices we make as our properties, our entire lives a summation. Each number fits into its place, with characterists that are an expression of that number. A number simply is a number. A personal choice expresses what we are, regardless of what made us. A person is responsible for their actions, as no one else can be -- as only certain numbers do certain things. I make choices according to what I am, and that is the limit of my freedom.

I haven't fully read the thread, yet. Sorry.
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Good, because it is upon the moment of consciousness that we begin our journey as a free willed human being (not a number). Whether that is before conception, during, or after, we just don't know yet. However, the Lord makes clear that we were already known, before being stitched together in the womb...which leads me to wonder, when and where free will begins for man...
 
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