agnosticism

[wil]

literalism and stubborn insistence....the bain of the athiest and many a believer....

hence the agnostic...

"I don't know", a powerful concept.


which brings back that whole 'hate' Jesus thing....

It appears to me that many a believer is has that 'hate' thing damn near patented.

 

[radarmark]

Funny how hatred and knowledge go hand in hand, isn't it?

That is why I really love this forum!

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[Lunitik]

literalism and stubborn insistence....the bain of the athiest and many a believer....

You'd think the Christians would be less prone to this since Jesus never came through the clouds, and never ruled an earthly kingdom - two things prophesied of the Messiah.

Then there is John's warnings against not reading the texts with the spiritual eye, about trying to comprehend the Bible with material minds. Yet still things are taken literally.

It is certainly worrisome, but what can you do if they are adamant?

 

[Lunitik]

Funny how hatred and knowledge go hand in hand, isn't it?

It is because it isn't actually known, thus you are still trying to convince yourself along with disputing with the other. Your ego becomes identified with these recollections, and yet nothing has actually happened, you are not transformed at all.

It is exactly why I go on saying that mind and its conclusions - including its conclusions about you, the ego "I" - must be dropped. It is between thoughts that the divine enters us, but even when we do not think we are thinking, still we are projecting on to the world around us, still we are allowing mind to subconsciously define all that we come across - compressing everything into our recollected names, this sort of thing.

The divine descends when we accept all that is without any projection, without any thought at all in the mind, when our consciousness ascends beyond mind. Of course, we will have to come back to communicate, but finding that place is truly beautiful - no human experience can possibly compare.

 

[Etu Malku]

literalism and stubborn insistence....the bain of the athiest and many a believer....

hence the agnostic...

"I don't know", a powerful concept.


which brings back that whole 'hate' Jesus thing....

It appears to me that many a believer is has that 'hate' thing damn near patented.

No, it's really "no one knows and I accept that"
On the other hand religion is blind faith and roars of "I don't know" but I'll follow something anyhow.

 

[IowaGuy]

Etu - why do you think that many studies show religious folk are happier than agnostics/athiests?

And given such studies, would you ever try to talk someone out of their faith?

i.e. do you think it's better for the general population to remain in "ignorance" (from your subjective truth viewpoint that faith is ignorance) yet be happier; or on the other hand be nonreligious/agnostic yet not as happy in life?

 

[Etu Malku]

Etu - why do you think that many studies show religious folk are happier than agnostics/athiests?

And given such studies, would you ever try to talk someone out of their faith?

i.e. do you think it's better for the general population to remain in "ignorance" (from your subjective truth viewpoint that faith is ignorance) yet be happier; or on the other hand be nonreligious/agnostic yet not as happy in life?

My dog is always happy, very happy matter of fact, because she is clueless about her existence, her demise, what time it is, etc.
This is actually the premise behind the Fall in the Garden, the Serpent enlightened Man to his existence.

Being an antitheist I would certainly, and do, talk people out of their faith.

 

[IowaGuy]

My dog is always happy, very happy matter of fact, because she is clueless about her existence, her demise, what time it is, etc.
This is actually the premise behind the Fall in the Garden, the Serpent enlightened Man to his existence.

Being an antitheist I would certainly, and do, talk people out of their faith.

So, just to clarify, would you argue that "truth" is better than "happiness"?

If someone (like the serpent in your Garden example) offered to tell you some "truth" about your life, but told you beforehand that it would decrease your happiness to know this given truth; would you still want to hear the truth?

Conversely, if you knew a "truth" about someone, but you knew that it would decrease their happiness if you told them; would you still tell them?

 

[seattlegal]

So, just to clarify, would you argue that "truth" is better than "happiness"?

If someone (like the serpent in your Garden example) offered to tell you some "truth" about your life, but told you beforehand that it would decrease your happiness to know this given truth; would you still want to hear the truth?

Conversely, if you knew a "truth" about someone, but you knew that it would decrease their happiness if you told them; would you still tell them?

Here we come back to suffering vs liberation. In the end, do they have to be mutually exclusive? I don't think so, but the transformation process getting there can be like going through hell.

 

[seattlegal]

My dog is always happy, very happy matter of fact, because she is clueless about her existence, her demise, what time it is, etc.
This is actually the premise behind the Fall in the Garden, the Serpent enlightened Man to his existence.

Being an antitheist I would certainly, and do, talk people out of their faith.

So, just to clarify, would you argue that "truth" is better than "happiness"?

If someone (like the serpent in your Garden example) offered to tell you some "truth" about your life, but told you beforehand that it would decrease your happiness to know this given truth; would you still want to hear the truth?

Conversely, if you knew a "truth" about someone, but you knew that it would decrease their happiness if you told them; would you still tell them?

Robin Trower-The Fool and Me. - YouTube

 

[Etu Malku]

If someone (like the serpent in your Garden example) offered to tell you some "truth" about your life, but told you beforehand that it would decrease your happiness to know this given truth; would you still want to hear the truth?

Conversely, if you knew a "truth" about someone, but you knew that it would decrease their happiness if you told them; would you still tell them?

Interesting questions . . . I would, and have, chosen a Path that is dark, solitary, and full of bumps and confusion, but I prefer it over a complacent Path.

As for decreasing another person's happiness, that's tricky . . . this requires moral and ethical thinking, I'll have to think about it before I answer.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

So, just to clarify, would you argue that "truth" is better than "happiness"?

If someone (like the serpent in your Garden example) offered to tell you some "truth" about your life, but told you beforehand that it would decrease your happiness to know this given truth; would you still want to hear the truth?

Conversely, if you knew a "truth" about someone, but you knew that it would decrease their happiness if you told them; would you still tell them?

One way to look at it it might be "helping people for their own good". I don't like that idea at all. If someone asks for my assistance I would feel that it would be honourable to help. But to save someone from themselves, or any other saving without being asked to, implies a sort of superiority I'm not very fond of.
Whether they would be happier or not knowing what I know isn't important at all for me.

 

[luecy7]

It appears to me that many a believer is has that 'hate' thing damn near patented.

Yes, and implemented by those soldiers who believe in government.

 

[IowaGuy]

One way to look at it it might be "helping people for their own good". I don't like that idea at all. If someone asks for my assistance I would feel that it would be honourable to help. But to save someone from themselves, or any other saving without being asked to, implies a sort of superiority I'm not very fond of.

OK, that seems reasonable, but what if they were part of a cult such as the recent "doomsday cults"? They didn't ask for your assistance but they are a good friend of yours. You know they are considering quitting their jobs and selling all their possessions and donating their life savings to the cult leader, who says that the rapture is coming soon. Would you try to tell them the "truth" according to ACOT or would you let them go forward with their plan without telling them anything at all?

 

[IowaGuy]

I would, and have, chosen a Path that is dark, solitary, and full of bumps and confusion, but I prefer it over a complacent Path.

Being an antitheist I would certainly, and do, talk people out of their faith.

Well, by talking people out of their blind faith, aren't you in a way encouraging them to go down that same dark path? What if they aren't ready for such a path in life, or they can't handle the uncertainty of such a path?

i.e. do you think all humans are "cut out for" agnosticism?

Their blind faith does serve a purpose in their life, does it not? Why would you want to take away that faith (ignorance is bliss) from them and, in exchange, offer them a "path that is dark, solitary, and full of bumps and confusion"?

Which path do you think would bring them more happiness in life? And if happiness is not the measuring stick, then what is, in your opinion?

 

[Etu Malku]

Well, by talking people out of their blind faith, aren't you in a way encouraging them to go down that same dark path? What if they aren't ready for such a path in life, or they can't handle the uncertainty of such a path?

i.e. do you think all humans are "cut out for" agnosticism?

Their blind faith does serve a purpose in their life, does it not? Why would you want to take away that faith (ignorance is bliss) from them and, in exchange, offer them a "path that is dark, solitary, and full of bumps and confusion"?

Which path do you think would bring them more happiness in life? And if happiness is not the measuring stick, then what is, in your opinion?

One word . . . TRUTH
What you do with it is entirely up to you

 

[IowaGuy]

I used to absolutely side towards "truth" as well, but I'm not sure all humans can "handle the truth", or that truth is always the best choice. I think sometimes truth and happiness can be mutually exclusive.

Here's another example I like to ponder:

You have an elderly friend/relative whose husband just died. They were high school sweethearts and had a wonderful relationship from what you can tell.

She asks you to help her to move into a smaller apartment now that she's widowed. While moving her things you come across an old box hidden under some junk in a corner of the garage that is full of letters/photos from her husband to a lover. It is clear to you from the evidence that he cheated on her at some point in their marriage.

While you are contemplating whether to tell her about the evidence she falls ill. While on her deathbed she is reminiscing about how blessed she has been in life, and how as far as she knows her husband was faithful to her for all the years they were married. Out of the blue, she asks you whether you think her husband ever cheated on her. She is literally days from death, and in a blissful state. What's your answer?


Another twist on this scenario is to delete the cheating husband part; he was faithful as far as you know and loved her very much. She falls ill after his death and while on her deathbed she tells you it gives her great hope and comfort to think she will be reunited with her husband soon in heaven. She says death would be very scary if she didn't have the thought of heaven to comfort her. She asks whether you think she's going to heaven and if you think she will see her deceased husband there. She is literally days from death, and in a blissful state. You are agnostic; what's your answer to her?


There's a very real possibility that I will personally encounter the 2nd scenario with my own relatives - mothers, aunts, etc.

 

[Etu Malku]

I used to absolutely side towards "truth" as well, but I'm not sure all humans can "handle the truth", or that truth is always the best choice. I think sometimes truth and happiness can be mutually exclusive.

Here's another example I like to ponder:

You have an elderly friend/relative whose husband just died. They were high school sweethearts and had a wonderful relationship from what you can tell.

She asks you to help her to move into a smaller apartment now that she's widowed. While moving her things you come across an old box hidden under some junk in a corner of the garage that is full of letters/photos from her husband to a lover. It is clear to you from the evidence that he cheated on her at some point in their marriage.

While you are contemplating whether to tell her about the evidence she falls ill. While on her deathbed she is reminiscing about how blessed she has been in life, and how as far as she knows her husband was faithful to her for all the years they were married. Out of the blue, she asks you whether you think her husband ever cheated on her. She is literally days from death, and in a blissful state. What's your answer?


Another twist on this scenario is to delete the cheating husband part; he was faithful as far as you know and loved her very much. She falls ill after his death and while on her deathbed she tells you it gives her great hope and comfort to think she will be reunited with her husband soon in heaven. She says death would be very scary if she didn't have the thought of heaven to comfort her. She asks whether you think she's going to heaven and if you think she will see her deceased husband there. She is literally days from death, and in a blissful state. You are agnostic; what's your answer to her?


There's a very real possibility that I will personally encounter the 2nd scenario with my own relatives - mothers, aunts, etc.

That's a great analogy . . . I must admit.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

OK, that seems reasonable, but what if they were part of a cult such as the recent "doomsday cults"? They didn't ask for your assistance but they are a good friend of yours. You know they are considering quitting their jobs and selling all their possessions and donating their life savings to the cult leader, who says that the rapture is coming soon. Would you try to tell them the "truth" according to ACOT or would you let them go forward with their plan without telling them anything at all?

It's tricky, and I think it should be difficult. Life is a mystery and very challenging.
I have never been in a situation like this so I doubt I can actually imagine what it would be like.
By principle I would not try to convince them to leave the cult. I would try to listen to them and if asked for my opinion I would share freely. I would perhaps give several possible answers for every question and not just argue from a specific set of beliefs.
I think dismissing their current cult-faith would only cause separation between us and I want to be there for them even though I really hate their choice.

I know I'm not giving you a clear yes/no answer but I don't think I can, life is to much like a rainbow.

 

[wil]

One of the seven habits of highly effective people by steven covey is "First seek to understand, then to be understood" I find that often if I truly seek to understand I know longer need to be undersood. One option is that through discussion I see where they are coming from and how there path is the path they need to be on at this moment in time....or two, through the socratic method, through asking questions, they get to a truth that is beyond anything I could say and another understanding of the path that they should be on.