Can you relate?

[Aupmanyav]

If you have a religion that shares these unity building virtues, then we really have no division, our search for truth should not divide us.
I am personally able to embrace you as a friend in life.
The bond only breaks when the virtues are compromised by our own selfish thoughts and actions.

Religions break the bond, otherwise you too are my friend. All religions pay lip service to peace and brotherhood.
As for my belief, it does not have any God, messenger, soul, heaven, hell, judgment, deliverance, birth, death or resurrection. It considers even a stone to be no different from me. 'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma' (All this here is Brahman).

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Religions break the bond, otherwise you too are my friend. All religions pay lip service to peace and brotherhood.
As for my belief, it does not have any God, messenger, soul, heaven, hell, judgment, deliverance, birth, death or resurrection. It considers even a stone to be no different from me. 'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma' (All this here is Brahman).

Stay well and happy Aupmanyav. The days ahead will be challenging, the future of humanity is its unity, in its diversity.

Regards Tony

 

[wil]

Godless views by our own selves.

Regards Tony

If you believe in G!d I can understand not wishing to have G!dless views...fight that in your own self...that is your struggle. Don't should on me.

JK has her own issues if she wants to sell books...nobody is required to support her...and they can't be made to.

Anyone who relies on the general public and paid speaking engagements for their income runs the risk of their mouths affecting their pockets....just as always.

 

[wil]

The problem really is confusing eternal divine law, with natural human law. The former is about the eternal soul, and the latter about the temporal rules for society, imo?

Man's law says obey traffic signals, or we will take away your money and or your freedom should you be a repeat offender.

To me ... G!ds law was discovered by scientists ... two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

The punishment is more severe.

 

[RJM]

has her own issues if she wants to sell books...nobody is required to support her...and they can't be made to.

Nobody cares anymore. She's just signed a big new 10 year TV remake of her books with new actors. The tide is turning on the anti-freedom of expression trans lobby nazis. They've shot themselves in the foot. People are just bored of their antics now. Life goes on, yawn ...

JK Rowling TV Deal

 

[TheLightWithin]

Why have we not bonded with the truth that people currently hold to?

Because so many people hold to so many different truths (ideas of truth)

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

If you believe in G!d I can understand not wishing to have G!dless views...fight that in your own self...that is your struggle. Don't should on me.

JK has her own issues if she wants to sell books...nobody is required to support her...and they can't be made to.

Anyone who relies on the general public and paid speaking engagements for their income runs the risk of their mouths affecting their pockets....just as always.

Our own actions become what we are judged against. God does not compel us to submit, so you are quite free to carry on as you so choose to.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Because so many people hold to so many different truths (ideas of truth)

One can consider, that some may not be truth. Such is the quandary of Faith verses our own choices

Regards

 

[wil]

Our own actions become what we are judged against. God does not compel us to submit, so you are quite free to carry on as you so choose to.

Regards Tony

Absolutely... I don't expect judgement beyond death...nor am I concerned if there is... I do better than a lot of zealots and scripture beaters of all varieties that I know.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Absolutely... I don't expect judgement beyond death...nor am I concerned if there is... I do better than a lot of zealots and scripture beaters of all varieties that I know.

I see the the ultimate motivation to become a global citizen, no matter what, lays in the knowledge that we are held responsible for our choices.

I see the issue is in what you have offered, that there is no expectation our actions are judged and there is no concern that one will be judged. I see without the knowledge of our impending judgement and the expectation of it, that people see they can be detached from many things that happen in this world, when in reality we are connected to it all.

It allows self betterment, beyond our normal considerations.

Regards Tony

 

[wil]

We are all judged in this life...daily.

By our peers, family, coworkers, taxi driver...everyone that sees us do anything.

By our kids, parents siblings...

Can't get around that...it is our choice to care or not.

I see the the ultimate motivation to become a global citizen

Absolutely....but I need not be concerned about any of others beliefs on "eternal judgement" or life after death to do that.

I need no G!d to be moral (and having one doesn't stop immorality)

 

[Thinking required]

Well, it would be you then, that differentiates between Jehovah and Allah [the Most High]

Did Jesus believe in Jehovah? Yes.
More than that .. he is the Jewish Messiah.
His "dying and rising", according to your belief, fulfilled his being Messiah..
..whereas Jews and Muslims think otherwise.

The Quran makes up a person called Isa and tries to make that name mean Jesus of the New Testament. Jesus was the last Prophet sent from God. The "dying and rising" is historic evidence. Oh, I forgot, evidence does not matter to people here.

 

[RJM]

The Quran makes up a person called Isa and tries to make that name mean Jesus of the New Testament.

No. The writer of the Quran was aware of the person Jesus, however the Quran Isa differs very much from the NT Jesus

Jesus was the last Prophet sent from God.

The Bible says so -- therefore it must be true?

The "dying and rising" is historic evidence.

Can you post the evidence?

Oh, I forgot, evidence does not matter to people here.

Post your evidence first, and allow 'people here' to judge. Be advised of the fact a thing is written in the Bible does not make it evidence of the event. It needs independent affirmation from other sources, or at least from one other source, and that source must be shown to be credible.

Otherwise its just your belief. Others have as much right to their own beliefs, until they barge in and rudely insist I must 'modify' my own beliefs to match theirs.

Anyway ... am logging off now

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

We are all judged in this life...daily.

By our peers, family, coworkers, taxi driver...everyone that sees us do anything.

By our kids, parents siblings...

Can't get around that...it is our choice to care or not.
Absolutely....but I need not be concerned about any of others beliefs on "eternal judgement" or life after death to do that.

I need no G!d to be moral (and having one doesn't stop immorality)

What is it to be Moral, what is the standard?

That is a key thought.

I agree that stating a belief in a certain God given Message does not make one Moral, but it does give guidance on what the Standards are.

This is a proof given by the Messengers, they are the given standard. They come amongst a degraded people, have the same faith and customs, but are know from birth to be pure stainless souls. The Message they subsequently give, brings the standard they live.

So all the Morals and ethics I can aspire to, have been lived and given by Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah gave his son Abdul'baha as an example for us all.

So I offer we can know what Morals and Erhics are, but yes, we will all struggle to emulate them in our lives.

I wish you all the best, it is better to have chats about this, there is no compulsion intended in my replies.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The Quran makes up a person called Isa and tries to make that name mean Jesus of the New Testament. Jesus was the last Prophet sent from God. The "dying and rising" is historic evidence. Oh, I forgot, evidence does not matter to people here.

I see the Bible evidence points to 3 more Messages after Jesus. I see all 3 and the result of their Messages are mentioned in the Bible and are now known as Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

The 3 Woes, the beast, the two witnesses, the year 1260, the Gate, the Glory of God all keys to understanding how this can be so.

Truth is relative.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

What is it to be Moral, what is the standard?

Well an atheist would debate that, and I think they'd have a point.

Because the standard you're about to propose is a standard according to your a priori belief ... a circular argument.

One could argue morals are a social construct, driven by pragmatism and exigency.

I agree that stating a belief in a certain God given Message does not make one Moral, but it does give guidance on what the Standards are.

Assuming that your God-given message is the Standard.

I think one has to distinguish between societal moral values – murder, theft, etc, and particular religious moral standards which belong to a particular religious system – No other gods, and so forth.

Aspects of the OT endorse a societal standard considered immoral and unacceptable today. As does the NT. Same applies to orthgodox Judaism, Catholicism, Islam and, indeed, Baha'i.

The societal standard is universal and independent of religion. The religious standard sits within a given paradigm – they apply and are justified and validated by that world view.

This is a proof given by the Messengers, they are the given standard.

Within a given world-view.

So all the Morals and ethics I can aspire to, have been lived and given by Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah gave his son Abdul'baha as an example for us all.

The world is full of examples.

+++

I think if everyone followed the Golden Rule: 'Do unto others ...' then that would cover every societal situation, I would have thought.

But of course the Golden Rule says nothing about our relation to God. Our societal values may well impact on that relationship, but then that does seem pretty malleable – war, genocide, slavery, trade in human beings, etc., have all seemed acceptable at some point in time ...

One could reasonably argue that the Biblical 'Fall' can be appreciated as a transgression of the Golden Rule.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The days ahead will be challenging, the future of humanity is its unity, in its diversity.

Nothing new. Life always throws challenges and we have to face them on our strength. Don't wait for a God to help you. He is in a hibernation now.

I see the the ultimate motivation to become a global citizen, ..
I see the issue is in what you have offered, that there is no expectation our actions are judged and there is no concern that one will be judged.

There is no global citizenship. The world is divided into 195 countries.
Most people believe the idea of final judgment as false, even those who claim to follow various religions. If it was not so, they would have acted in a different way. In essence, that also means their disbelief in existence of any God. At least, atheists are better than such people.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is it to be Moral, what is the standard? That is a key thought.
This is a proof given by the Messengers, they are the given standard.

In Hinduism, it comes in one line: "Paropakāram punyāya, pāpāya parapīdanam" (Helping other is merit, giving pain to others is sin)
It is nothing that God or any messenger instructed, it is the society which arrived at this conclusion. It is a saying in Sanskrit, it is not even in a book. The standards are there even without a God or a messenger.

 

[seattlegal]

I so agree with this. I am so much happier when I know less.

The key is knowing that you don't know and making peace with that.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Well an atheist would debate that, and I think they'd have a point.
Because the standard you're about to propose is a standard according to your a priori belief ... a circular argument.

I see God offers the standard. I am confident in the Word of God over any singles man's world view.

When a person cuts themselves from that Word, the foundations are also lost. This is applicable to all people that claim a faith and all people without a faith.

The quandary we have are single persons views, being preferred to the Word of God.

One could argue morals are a social construct, driven by pragmatism and exigency.

Yes they can. Luckily there are enough people that submit to God's given morals and ethics and take seriously the warnings given in all scriptures about what happens when man turns away from God.

I am responsible and answerable for my own actions, and God guides all others, as God so chooses.

Assuming that your God-given message is the Standard.

I personally do not have to assume. The standard set by Baha'u'llah stands upon the Word of God and will mirror our highest aspirations. It is perfect for the age we live in and reflects the highest aspirations of all past Faiths.

The key ingredient here is, that when man sets their own standards, their aspirations become the destruction and downfall of humanity. If they mirror what God has given, the progress of humanity results.

I think one has to distinguish between societal moral values – murder, theft, etc, and particular religious moral standards which belong to a particular religious system – No other gods, and so forth.

God gives many social laws via Messengers that are suited for the age. This ties into my statement above.

Aspects of the OT endorse a societal standard considered immoral and unacceptable today. As does the NT. Same applies to orthgodox Judaism, Catholicism, Islam and, indeed, Baha'i.
The societal standard is universal and independent of religion. The religious standard sits within a given paradigm – they apply and are justified and validated by that world view.
Within a given world-view.

This ties into the two statements above. God gives guidance that is eternal, found in all Faiths and guidance suited to the age in which we live.

The world is full of examples.

Yes indeed, but none such as Abdul'baha, a perfect example of God given attributes in the life and service of a human being. Abdul'baha was a gift.

Spoiler: Mystery of God

He is, and should for all time be regarded, first and foremost, as the Center and Pivot of Bahá’u’lláh’s peerless and all-enfolding Covenant, His most exalted handiwork, the stainless Mirror of His light, the perfect Exemplar of His teachings, the unerring Interpreter of His Word, the embodiment of every Bahá’í ideal, the incarnation of every Bahá’í virtue, the Most Mighty Branch sprung from the Ancient Root, the Limb of the Law of God, the Being “round Whom all names revolve,” the Mainspring of the Oneness of Humanity, the Ensign of the Most Great Peace, the Moon of the Central Orb of this most holy Dispensation—styles and titles that are implicit and find their truest, their highest and fairest expression in the magic name ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. He is, above and beyond these appellations, the “Mystery of God”—an expression by which Bahá’u’lláh Himself has chosen to designate Him, and which, while it does not by any means justify us to assign to Him the station of Prophethood, indicates how in the person of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized.

Shoghi Effendi – The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

I offer this link, if you are interested in such a life of complete servitude to God.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá – The Mystery of God - The Utterance Project

He is, and should for all time be regarded, first and foremost, as the Center and Pivot of Bahá’u’lláh’s peerless and all-enfolding Covenant, His most...

theutteranceproject.com

I think if everyone followed the Golden Rule: 'Do unto others ...' then that would cover every societal situation, I would have thought.

But of course the Golden Rule says nothing about our relation to God. Our societal values may well impact on that relationship, but then that does seem pretty malleable – war, genocide, slavery, trade in human beings, etc., have all seemed acceptable at some point in time ...

One could reasonably argue that the Biblical 'Fall' can be appreciated as a transgression of the Golden Rule.

Yes, this is a great foundation, and Eternal God given guidance. God knows our needs and supplies them in each age. God gives the promise and the judgement. The Word of God contains both these aspects.

Regards Tony