Can you relate?

[TheLightWithin]

I see the Bible evidence points to 3 more Messages after Jesus. I see all 3 and the result of their Messages are mentioned in the Bible and are now known as Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Interesting. I'm curious to understand more about prophecy, including something as particular as that.
Which books or chapters in the bible point to 3 more messengers?

I'm not saying they could not have been the 3 you mentioned, but could the 3 you refer to have actually been Jesus' own disciples instead?

Or significant figures within Judaism? Maimonedes or Nachmanades? Or any of various controversial Messianic figures within Jewish history?

How about Joseph Smith? Or Haile Selassie?

 

[Ahanu]

Religions break the bond, otherwise you too are my friend. All religions pay lip service to peace and brotherhood.
As for my belief, it does not have any God, messenger, soul, heaven, hell, judgment, deliverance, birth, death or resurrection. It considers even a stone to be no different from me. 'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma' (All this here is Brahman).

I walked by many stones today. They were most definitely different from me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I walked by many stones today. They were most definitely different from me.

Did you check their chemical composition?

 

[Ahanu]

Did you check their chemical composition?

No.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Interesting. I'm curious to understand more about prophecy, including something as particular as that.
Which books or chapters in the bible point to 3 more messengers?
I'm not saying they could not have been the 3 you mentioned, but could the 3 you refer to have actually been Jesus' own disciples instead?
Or significant figures within Judaism? Maimonedes or Nachmanades? Or any of various controversial Messianic figures within Jewish history?
How about Joseph Smith? Or Haile Selassie?

A key to Prophecy is understanding that Bible passages contain spiritual explanations of events that will transire in the near or the distant future. Many passages talk about the Station of the Messenger. Examples that appear in prophecy are the Messiah, which is an Annointed One, Which is also the translation of Christ.

"Messiah is derived from the Hebrew word mashiach which means "anointed one" and which corresponds to the NT title of "Christ" (Christos = anointed one).

When we know that Jesus was Christ, as Jesus was an "Annointed One" of God, then other specific Titles, which are Annointed ny God, can also be found in the Bible.

Examples.

"The Glory of God", "Father", "Gate", "Son", 1st-2nd-3rd Woes, "Two Witnesses", "Comforter", "Spirit of Truth".

Another keys is times and places are veiled in passages that need other keys to give meaning.

Have you ever heard of the great disappointment? William Miller predicted 1844 as rerurn of Christ? Was it really a disappointment? The Bible contains that Date reflected in many passage other than what William Miller used. AH1260 is also AD1844. Look how many times 1260 appears in Daniel and Revelation. 1260 is written as "Times, times and half a time, 3 and 1/2 years, 42 months and 1260 days. In the Bible a year is recorded as 12 months of 30 days and each day is a year.

So much to consider, Regards Tony.

 

[Thomas]

I see God offers the standard...

I know. I don't doubt that you do.

I'm just pointing out that your faith, my faith, his or her faith, is not a compelling argument.

How one conducts oneself in the light of their faith can be, to the open mind and the open heart.

It is a Christian belief that everyone is a bearer of the light (cf John 1:4-5).

It is a Christian belief that while we recognise and canonise a few individuals as saints, they are just exemplars, not only of the light, but the fact that so, so many saints walk in the world, who's light goes unseen and unknown, but is no less for that – the light is not a quantitative thing, it's a qualitative thing.

And, we being the organic beings as we are, one day we are saints, next day we are sinners. We can become either in a moment.

As John Milton says:
"... ‘God doth not need
Either man’s work or his own gifts; who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is Kingly. Thousands at his bidding speed
And post o’er Land and Ocean without rest:
They also serve who only stand and wait.’
(On His Blindness – written we think, 1652, a year after he discovered he was going blind)

+++

There is a deep Orthodox belief that at any given time, the intercessory prayers of three individuals keep the world in being ... I doubt many people believe that.

 

[Thomas]

A key to Prophecy is understanding that Bible passages contain spiritual explanations of events that will transire in the near or the distant future...

Perhaps so ... but the omnipresent risk is in reading what is not there.

Have you ever heard of the great disappointment? William Miller predicted 1844 as rerurn of Christ?

Ah ... we have to tread carefully with America ... so often have they – Miller, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and others, predicted the date of the return from interpreting a Biblical 'code' ... and yet here we are ... it's all a bit like the Mayan Calendar and the End of the World.

Today we have 'the Rapture' – again a particularly US phenomena, when presumably God will return and take up 144,000 midwest Americans!

(The literature is so pervasive that the NYT dropped rapture novels from its best-seller lists ... go figure)

The Bible contains that Date reflected in many passage other than what William Miller used. AH1260 is also AD1844. Look how many times 1260 appears in Daniel and Revelation. 1260 is written as "Times, times and half a time, 3 and 1/2 years, 42 months and 1260 days. In the Bible a year is recorded as 12 months of 30 days and each day is a year.

So much to consider, Regards Tony.

Worth also considering that it was shown there is so much data available in the Bible that one can come up with almost any date one wants.

Such was demonstrated – I forget the precise details – but I know at the same time the study did the same with Melville's "Moby Dick" and from there 'de-coded' the text to demonstrate prophecy of significant events in US history subsequent to its publishing.

And Nostradamus waxes and wanes ...

Jus' sayin' ...

 

[Thinking required]

Can you post the evidence?

Sure, just read the Bible. It's a historically accurate book. Names, places, people, etc.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Have you ever heard of the great disappointment? William Miller predicted 1844 as rerurn of Christ? Was it really a disappointment? The Bible contains that Date reflected in many passage other than what William Miller used. AH1260 is also AD1844. Look how many times 1260 appears in Daniel and Revelation. 1260 is written as "Times, times and half a time, 3 and 1/2 years, 42 months and 1260 days. In the Bible a year is recorded as 12 months of 30 days and each day is a year.

So much to consider, Regards Tony.

Yes, indeed. That is part of the early origin of the SDA church. If I understand they reinterpreted it to mean that was the start date of something they call the "Investigative Judgment"
I don't think I knew the other details you mentioned, about the numbers and what are considered years and months in the Bible, Thanks.
I still wonder if some of those other prophet type names I mentioned (I should have included William Miller and Ellen White as examples) are the messengers referred to in your previous post.
Yes there is very much to consider.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

It is a Christian belief that everyone is a bearer of the light (cf John 1:4-5).

Yes indeed, we can be in the light, (one with Christ) or we can choose darkness (Be bound to the material world). In each age we are invited to be born again, born from our darkness into the Light that is Christ. We are one and all born in that image, on the edge of darkness and the beginning of Light.

To be a Lover of Christ, one must know the life and teachings of Jesus, to share the light one must pick up the cross and follow Christ.

Abdul'baha (Servant of the Glory) was gifted from "Christ" to us as the best example of the light, that we can aspire to. One must know of that life to benefit from it. (Abdul'baha was not a "Christ")

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Perhaps so ... but the omnipresent risk is in reading what is not there

A valid observation and that is why we need "Christ", as only "Christ" can open the seals of God's Word.

The quandary for us, is the recognition of God given Messengers, who one and all are "Christ", annointed of God.

Luckily Jesus gave us the tools to do this. Our lot is learning to use those tools, our spiritual capacity in a fair and just manner.

By their fruits and prophecies we shall know them. I see these passages show us how to determine who have been given the station of "Christ". These passages only reflect the potential of a believer once they embrace the Christ's given of God.

So when Jesus said He had much more to say unto us and it would require the "Spirit of Truth" to guide us, it was up to us to embrace the next "Christ", who are the "Spirit of Truth" and who, one and all, do come in the "Name" that Jesus was.

It was upon this Rock the Church was to be built.

".....Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven...."

The flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that is the Light and life.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Perhaps so ... but the omnipresent risk is in reading what is not there.


Ah ... we have to tread carefully with America ... so often have they – Miller, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and others, predicted the date of the return from interpreting a Biblical 'code' ... and yet here we are ... it's all a bit like the Mayan Calendar and the End of the World.

Today we have 'the Rapture' – again a particularly US phenomena, when presumably God will return and take up 144,000 midwest Americans!

(The literature is so pervasive that the NYT dropped rapture novels from its best-seller lists ... go figure)


Worth also considering that it was shown there is so much data available in the Bible that one can come up with almost any date one wants.

Such was demonstrated – I forget the precise details – but I know at the same time the study did the same with Melville's "Moby Dick" and from there 'de-coded' the text to demonstrate prophecy of significant events in US history subsequent to its publishing.

And Nostradamus waxes and wanes ...

Jus' sayin' ...

The issue we face Thomas is that amongst all the false claims, a 'Christ' is always born, not of the flesh, but of the Holy Spirit.

It is amazing to realise that Revelation chapter 11 and 12 are full of the knowledge of the 3 Woes to come. (Jesus also pointed us back to Daniel to confirm this).

The Two Witnesses of Revelation were Muhammad and Ali. The dead bodies laying in the street for 1260 years signified the downfall of Islam was the rejection of Muhammad's Covenant on His death bed, where Ali should have been appointed as successor. The beast was the Nations of Islam that resulted from the disobeying that Covernant, the beast became a faith of laws and not of the Spirit.

John saw it "rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy." (There were 7 Dynasties that had 10 rulers in Islam. Rising from the Ocean that is God's Words, but blasphemers because of a neglected Covernant).

The year AH1260 of Islam was AD1844 and the Long awaited promise unfolded. The Gate was opened, the Bab declared He had come to prepare the way for Baha'u'llah, tge Glory of God. Prophecy of Ezekiel came to fruition. The Glory of God came by the way of the Gate, whose prospect was towards the East. The Bab opened the way, Baha'u'llah was banished to Akka, the Day of God had commenced.

What else can I say Thomas, it is all about our own perceptions, our ability to subdue our own selves, our own perceptions in preference to the light given by God.

None of what I offer is about removing Jesus the Christ from our hearts, it is all about embracing all that was Jesus the Christ, the first Messenger and the Last Messenger, from the beginning to the end, the Alpha and Omega.

May the Light of God permeate the conciousness reality of all humanity. May we one and all dispel the darkness that is our own self.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yes, indeed. That is part of the early origin of the SDA church. If I understand they reinterpreted it to mean that was the start date of something they call the "Investigative Judgment"
I don't think I knew the other details you mentioned, about the numbers and what are considered years and months in the Bible, Thanks.
I still wonder if some of those other prophet type names I mentioned (I should have included William Miller and Ellen White as examples) are the messengers referred to in your previous post.
Yes there is very much to consider.

I would offer it would be a good idea to consider what William Miller had calculated and how he did do it.

He had come up with the year, but as the Bible said, the Day and Hour no man knows. It's great the Bible did not say no one knows the Year, it only mentioned the Day or the Hour, confirming that the year could be known prior to the event,which it was.

The issue is, everyone was looking for a Christ of their own perceptions, no one was looking for someone that may be Annointed of God to bring Christ back to us.

Yet in AD1844, which is AH1260, while William Miller was expecting the return, to the East of the Holy Land in Persia, the Bab (Gate) announced to the first believer in "Christ" for this age, I Am here to prepare the way for the Glory of God.

This is the greatest story, yet to be fully told. Imagine we are now living in the 'Day of God', where the Lords Prayer is becoming a reality for generations to come.

But it needs us to built that Kingdom, where the rule of man is guided by the Spirit of God.

There is so much to offer, I find it very hard to be constrained. Which reminds me of this poem written some years back.

But a moth

I am but a moth smitten by thy flame,
If I want to dive in, can I be put to blame?

Flame devourers, ashes fall to the ground,
spirit released, now not mortal bound.

What can I say upon that very day?

T'was your love that called me in
Who am I to reject a whim?

I am but a moth smitten by the flame,
If only I could dive in again and again.

Oh would that thou let me choose this path,
To the lovers in Iran, would flee my heart.

TBS 2 June 2015 (But a moth)

Regards Tony

 

[Thinking required]

A key to Prophecy is understanding that Bible passages contain spiritual explanations of events that will transire in the near or the distant future.

You did not answer the question? Please give the verses you are using for the 3 others messengers. What is the need for other messengers if all the messages are the same? Miracles? Since Muhammad never preformed a miracle, then what verifies him as a messenger? Both parts of the Bible are littered with miracles. Jesus ends it all with His death and resurrection, there is no further need of someone who keeps expounding a works by Law salvation. God required a blood sacrifice for sin from the Jews, this carried over to Jesus being the final sacrifice. It's all there in a book that you certainly read. But somehow you want to read into it some hidden meaning.

 

[wil]

You did not answer the question? Please give the verses you are using for the 3 others messengers

Sure, just read the Bible. It's a historically accurate book. Names, places, people, etc.

Skipped the question? And just went on pontificating? You just go tell that mirror it isn't right!


That hypocrisy aside...this has grown into a great thread with a number of interfaith voices chiming in...some good stuff here. The dichotomy is how there is thinking required yet that is also interfering.

Love it when life creates its own allegory

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

You did not answer the question? Please give the verses you are using for the 3 others messengers. What is the need for other messengers if all the messages are the same? Miracles? Since Muhammad never preformed a miracle, then what verifies him as a messenger? Both parts of the Bible are littered with miracles. Jesus ends it all with His death and resurrection, there is no further need of someone who keeps expounding a works by Law salvation. God required a blood sacrifice for sin from the Jews, this carried over to Jesus being the final sacrifice. It's all there in a book that you certainly read. But somehow you want to read into it some hidden meaning.

Baha'u'llah asked me to only share with those that would like to hear. With God there is no compulsion. It has taken me years to not cross that line as often as I used to. Jesus said the same thing to his disciples.

Mark 6:10-11 “And He said to them, “Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.” (The testimony against them is their neglect to listen, and they miss out)

There is great wisdom in those words, as God gives the Christ's to humanity 100% without compulsion and warns us of the consequences of our rejection. We could have many lives of wonderful conversations about the Word Baha'u'llah brought, the Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus the Christ, but alas, so far the majority of humanity still awaits for what God has already given.

Thus it would not matter what I posted, if one does not want to hear and is already set with their own answers, there would be not point in the arguments inevitably follow. This forum is full of those arguments, I helped put them here.

Alas, that is my shortcoming. So do I answer your questions? No I think I must be constrained, as when I read your questions, they are not of one that is ready to listen, as following the questions are replies of someone with a cup full of their own understandings. This is what Christ faces in every age.

Every wondered why Jesus the Christ says many are called but few are chosen, and the Last will be first and the first last, and many have prophesied in my Name, but I do not know them?

Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So have you considered that verse, you are giving your interpretation in the name of Jesus the Christ. For me I see Baha'u'llah is the Father and I give those explanations.

I guess the quandary will remain, but maybe we can explore those questions? Maybe?

I will not use my interpretation if we do, I will give you official interpretation from the Baha'i Writings, interpretation that I see comes for all that was Jesus the Christ. That would be worth considering. Imagine the pain of one's heart if they realised their arguments were against God and not with me, a worthless germ of an interfaith participant.

Regards Tony

 

[TheLightWithin]

I will give you official interpretation from the Baha'i Writings

That would be interesting also.
In light of what you say about Baha'ullah being the Father -- (Meaning the YHWH of the bible?) Is that official Baha'i teaching?
I'm curious to know more... so interesting

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

That would be interesting also.
In light of what you say about Baha'ullah being the Father -- (Meaning the YHWH of the bible?) Is that official Baha'i teaching?
I'm curious to know more... so interesting

Thanks for the questions, it is appreciated.

This is a massive topic, as there are books of quotes available to explain the question you have asked.

I think the first thing I should offer is that of the One God, the unknowable, unreachable creator of the heavens and all the worlds of God. Baha'u'llah has offered all access to that knowledge is beyond our comprehensive capacity. (I have added explanation)

"HE IS GOD, EXALTED IS HE, THE LORD OF MAJESTY AND POWER

A PRAISE which is exalted above every mention or description beseemeth the Adored One, the Possessor of all things visible and invisible, Who hath enabled the Primal Point (The Bab) to reveal countless Books and Epistles and Who, through the potency of His sublime Word, hath called into being the entire creation, whether of the former or more recent generations. Moreover He hath in every age and cycle, in conformity with His transcendent wisdom, sent forth a divine Messenger to revive the dispirited and despondent souls with the living waters of His utterance, One Who is indeed the Expounder, the true Interpreter, inasmuch as man is unable to comprehend that which hath streamed forth from the Pen of Glory and is recorded in His heavenly Books. Men at all times and under all conditions stand in need of one to exhort them, guide them and to instruct and teach them. Therefore He hath sent forth His Messengers, His Prophets and chosen ones that they might acquaint the people with the divine purpose underlying the revelation of Books and the raising up of Messengers, and that everyone may become aware of the trust of God which is latent in the reality of every soul....."

So all the Names of God, all the explanations and praise we see written of God, is but a reflection of the Manifestations (Messengers) given of God. All those Names an attributes are made manifest to us by the Messengers. Only the Messengers (And those that they have given authority to do so, like the disciples of Jesus), are able to explain the Words of God

So Jesus Christ came in the Station of the "Son", Baha'u'llah has come in the Station of the "Father". They are One in Spirit, so the Son has become the Father. This reflects how in this world a son does become a father.

Now I offer what Baha'u'llah wrote to Pope Pius IX, to which some context and the introduction is needed, so I have put in bold the statement about the Father.

"O Pope! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained. Dispel the mists through the power of thy Lord, and ascend unto the Kingdom of His names and attributes. Thus hath the Pen of the Most High commanded thee at the behest of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Compelling. He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him without a clear token or proof.............The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous! O followers of all religions! We behold you wandering distraught in the wilderness of error. Ye are the fish of this Ocean; wherefore do ye withhold yourselves from that which sustaineth you?........... This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!” This is the Word which was preserved behind the veils of grandeur, and which, when the Promise came to pass, shed its radiance from the horizon of the Divine Will with clear tokens....."

Shoghi Effendi, The great grandson of Baha’u’llah has explained all the Titles that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled. It is a couple of pages, so if interested I have linked these. The explanation starts on page 94 at this following link gives all the references to the Titles of Baha'u'llah from all past scriptures.

Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, pgs. 91-95

bahai-library.com

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thump, thump, thump your books.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Thump, thump, thump your books.

Maybe that reply, supports the original OP.

If one does not know the knowledge contained within, then I guess they can consider that it is not applicable to them. If they became aware of the contents, then life may require great change.

Regards Tony