Do serve God...or a 'Trinity'?

RJM said:
Paul was the first Christian writer, before the Gospels
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I see him as a respectable scholar who contributed to the spread of the teachings of Jesus. He hardly ever quotes Jesus; his teachings are certainly close to what Jesus taught, but also his own. What teaching of Paul do you see contradicted in the Quran?
 
talib-al-kalim said:
What teaching of Paul do you see contradicted in the Quran?
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Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God
Romans 3:19-25
 
juantoo3 said:
minor point, I thought Luke was.
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RJM said:
Paul was the first Christian writer, before the Gospels
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Mark probably wrote the earliest Gospel account, probably shortly before 50 CE. Most of Paul's epistles are probably earlier. Luke knew Mark's account and wrote the Gospel and the Acts accounts before Paul's death.
 
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I see him (Paul) as a respectable scholar who contributed to the spread of the teachings of Jesus.
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Paul was in a unique position to translate a Hebrew / Aramaic if not Jewish belief into a Greco-Roman-Pagan world. It is because of the missionary efforts of Paul that the message was carried far afield from Israel / Judea, travelling around the Greek speaking merchant cities around the Med before landing in Rome. Paul was a Roman citizen, such was a luxury not available to the vast majority of Hebrews of the time outside of the Merchant class. This allowed him access, and relevance, wherever he went. Were it not for Paul, Christianity would be a footnote in the history books.

Those couple of Messianic Jewish sects, the Nazarites and the Ebionites, essentially disappeared after Bar Kochba. They never held any political power, where 300 years later +/- under Constantine, Christianity gained the upper hand politically over the entire Empire, and never looked back.
 
RJM said:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God
Romans 3:19-25
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Mt 7:21-23​

Lk 6:46​

Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Lk 13:26-27​

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’		Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’



But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’

Lk 11:27-28​

Th 79​

As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!”

But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”		A woman from the crowd said to Him, “Blessed are the womb which bore You and the breasts which nourished You.” He said to her, “Blessed are those who have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it.

Mt 21:28-32​

What do you think? A man had two sons; and he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’

And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he repented and went.

And he went to the second and said the same; and he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go.

Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him; and even when you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him.

Mt 7:24-27​

Lk 6:47-49​

Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them


will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;


and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand;

and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.
Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like:
he is like a man building a house, who dug deep, and laid the foundation upon rock;

and when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it had been well built.


But he who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation;

against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.
 
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talib-al-kalim said:
Mark probably wrote the earliest Gospel account, probably shortly before 50 CE. Most of Paul's epistles are probably earlier. Luke knew Mark's account and wrot the Gospel and the Acts accounts before Paul's death.
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I understand Luke to have been Paul's travelling companion, like a secretary sort of. Acts is the second part of the Gospel of Luke, he wrote both.
 
RJM said:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God
Romans 3:19-25
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The format seems to have a bug that it is not possible to write something under a table. My quotes above show that deeds are also necessary according to the teachings of Jesus. That's what the Quran teaches: Have faith and do good.
 
juantoo3 said:
Paul was in a unique position to translate a Hebrew / Aramaic if not Jewish belief into a Greco-Roman-Pagan world. It is because of the missionary efforts of Paul that the message was carried far afield from Israel / Judea, travelling around the Greek speaking merchant cities around the Med before landing in Rome. Paul was a Roman citizen, such was a luxury not available to the vast majority of Hebrews of the time outside of the Merchant class. This allowed him access, and relevance, wherever he went. Were it not for Paul, Christianity would be a footnote in the history books.

Those couple of Messianic Jewish sects, the Nazarites and the Ebionites, essentially disappeared after Bar Kochba. They never held any political power, where 300 years later +/- under Constantine, Christianity gained the upper hand politically over the entire Empire, and never looked back.
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Paul's contribution to the mission outside Judea was certainly important; that's why his epistles have become part of the NT. But when he went to Damascus, there was already a Christian community. Mark went with Barnabbas and Peter. Thomas is reported by weaker sources to have gone eastward. John went to what is today Turkey probably after 71 CE. Paul was not the only one. He had also the advantage to have the Roman citizenship so that he was not among the many who have been killed early.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
Paul's contribution to the mission outside Judea was certainly important; that's why his epistles have become part of the NT. But when he went to Damascus, there was already a Christian community. Mark went with Barnabbas and Peter. Thomas is reported by weaker sources to have gone eastward. John went to what is today Turkey probably after 71 CE. Paul was not the only one. He had also the advantage to have the Roman citizenship so that he was not among the many who have been killed early.
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Paul still got offed pretty early in the game. I'd say right around the time Nero set Rome on fire. 64AD +/-

I'm not discounting the missionary efforts of the other Apostles. Jesus himself is rumored to have built the first Wattle Church in Cornwall, a tradition recognized by the Catholic Church even if not openly, according that Bishop a degree of rank by virtue of being the first. There are apostolic rumors across the Pyrenees and Cantabrian Mountains in the North of Spain, and a pilgrimage trail that runs across them. Biblical figures are rumored from France to Tara in Ireland, and the Stone of Scone.

This shows me that wisdom traditions can carry far and wide...as if Buddhism is no example of this very thing. But to "gain the throne" politically is a major feat. With that comes abuse, and that is true no matter what religion is in power.

Paul was instrumental in boosting Christianity to a point (of critical mass?) where it could flourish rather than self destruct as so many new religions do. One no longer had to be Jewish, with ALL that entails, prior to becoming Christian. But a lot of the Jewish wisdom was lost in the process, or likely misunderstood by those not immersed in that culture.

Jesus was Jewish. Paul was Jewish. Peter, John, James...they all were Jewish.
 
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talib-al-kalim said:
My quotes above show that deeds are also necessary according to the teachings of Jesus. That's what the Quran teaches: Have faith and do good.
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It's an old debate. It doesn't negate Paul. It doesn't verify the Quran Jesus, imo
 
The first commandment is to love God, the second is to love my neighbour as myself. There's a reason, imo
 
juantoo3 said:
"Physical energy" being permeating matter
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All matter itself is 'physical energy'. Why differentiate between body and the imagined soul.
That is what my books said: 'Ayamatma Brahman' (This self is Brahman, physical energy).

"Mandukya Upanishad is in prose, consisting of twelve short verses, and is associated with a Atharva Veda school of scholars."
en.wikipedia.org

Mandukya Upanishad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

I marvel at the brevity (and sometimes the hugeness) of Hindu scriptures. Another one, Ishavasya Upanishad has 18 verses. Bhagawat Purana has 24,000 verses and Skand Purana has 81,000. :)
en.wikipedia.org

Puranas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Brahma Sutra has 555 aphoristic one-liners in four chapters, dealing with attaining knowledge of Brahman.

Brahma Sutras - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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talib-al-kalim said:
... the teachings of Jesus.
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Below is a complete list, in bold, of the words of Jesus in the Quran. They are hollow and empty phrases, asserting that he does nothing by his own power, but only by permission of Allah. He doesn't sound at all like the New Testament Jesus, imo:

And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. (3:49)

(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. (3:50)

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?” (3:52)

“…and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.”
(5:72)


[And remember] when the disciples said, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven? [Jesus] said," Fear Allah , if you should be believers."

They said, "We wish to eat from it and let our hearts be reassured and know that you have been truthful to us and be among its witnesses."

Said Jesus, the son of Mary, "O Allah , our Lord, send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, and You are the best of providers."

Allah said, "Indeed, I will sent it down to you, but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you - then indeed will I punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds."

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (5:112-120)


He said, I am God's servant; He has given me the Book, and made me a prophet. He has made me blessed wherever I am, and has enjoined on me the Worship and Alms, so long as I live; and to be dutiful to my mother; and has not made me oppressive, impious. Peace is on me the day I was born, the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised alive. (19:29)

When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: “Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.” (43:63)

https://legacy.quran.com/
 
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