Do serve God...or a 'Trinity'?

Thomas said:
That 'there was a time when he was not' is mentioned in so many places, by critics and followers, it's pretty indisputable.
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Yes, but what did they mean by that?
The Scripture begins with "In the Beginning, G-d created the heavens and earth"..
..no mention of Jesus :D

Thomas said:
Might I ask where you get your info on Arius from?
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Wikipedia..
I do not wish to get my information from a biased source ..
..such as a Christian or Muslim website. ;)

Thomas said:
I rather think that having dismissed the evidence, and philosophy generally, it's you who's being 'selective', and assuming everyone else is.
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No .. there is a difference between evidence, and making "fatwas" or conclusions.

Thomas said:
As @TheLightWithin said, Platonism was the language of philosophy, in service to theology.
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I don't think Jesus subscribed..

Thomas said:
Your Muslim scholars were influenced by Plato and Aristotle too ...
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The are not "my" Muslim scholars .. I'm not an Arab or born a Muslim.

Thomas said:
in fact Muslim scholars received Greek philosophical texts (in Arabic) from Nestorian Christians) and kept the torch of enlightened learning alive, to bring Greek philosophy back into Western Europe after access had largely been lost to a number of primary works.

Thomas Aquinas was an admirer of Ibn Sina, or Avicenna as he's known in the west, a pre-eminent philosopher and physician of the Muslim world, who flourished in what is called the 'Islamic Golden Age' (8th-13th centuries)
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Naturally, we are all human, and affected by our environment.

Thomas said:
Tell me – What did he say about Jesus then? That Jesus was not God? And please supply evidence ...
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I don't think I need to .. are you saying that Arius believed that Jesus is "the Father" ?

I don't know of ANY Christian who doesn't believe that the Father is G-d !!! :)
 
muhammad_isa said:
Yes, but what did they mean by that?
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I've explained that, with references.

Perhaps you should reread the wiki page on Arianism:
"Arian theology holds that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was begotten by God the Father with the difference that the Son of God did not always exist but was begotten/made before "time" by God the Father; therefore, Jesus was not coeternal with God the Father, but nonetheless Jesus began to exist outside time as time applies only to the creations of God."

What do you think that means?

muhammad_isa said:
Wikipedia..
I do not wish to get my information from a biased source ...
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Er ... you do know where wiki gets its information from?

muhammad_isa said:
I don't think Jesus subscribed..
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Nor did the Prophet (pbuh) – but Islamic scholarship does.

muhammad_isa said:
The are not "my" Muslim scholars .. I'm not an Arab or born a Muslim.
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Nitpick.

muhammad_isa said:
I don't think I need to ...
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That about sums it up.
 
Thomas said:
Perhaps you should reread the wiki page on Arianism:
"Arian theology holds that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was begotten by God the Father with the difference that the Son of God did not always exist but was begotten/made before "time" by God the Father; therefore, Jesus was not coeternal with God the Father, but nonetheless Jesus began to exist outside time as time applies only to the creations of God."
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Yes .. what's wrong with that?

"Jesus is the Son of God" ---> OK .. Jews also believe in sons of God
"who was begotten by God the Father" ---> God the Father is God .. no problem there. :)
"with the difference that Jesus did not always exist" ---> i.e. Jesus is not God
"nonetheless Jesus began to exist outside time" ---> Right .. his soul existed before he was born

You see .. it is all down to preconceived ideas, on how we interpret various theological concepts.
 
It's just baffling how these religions love to contort scripture to support their beliefs and discard anything that doesn't fit it by either simply ignoring it or claiming it's not valid. You really can't expect us to take your religion seriously as valid or truth. It's foolishness to me.
 
"Jesus is the Son of God ---> OK .. Jews also believe in sons of God
Different context – as well you know, or are you saying Jews believe in many Gods?

"who was begotten by God the Father ---> God the Father is God .. no problem there. :)
OK

"with the difference that Jesus did not always exist ---> i.e. Jesus is not God
LOL, No. That there was a time when God was not Father. ... don't put words into wiki's mouth, you naughty person.

"nonetheless Jesus began to exist outside time" ---> Right .. his soul existed before he was born
Wrong. Again, not what wiki is saying.

"You see .. it is all down to preconceived ideas ...
In this case, clearly, yours.

'Nuff said.
 
Thomas said:
"Jesus is the Son of God ---> OK .. Jews also believe in sons of God
Different context – as well you know, or are you saying Jews believe in many Gods?

"who was begotten by God the Father ---> God the Father is God .. no problem there. :)
OK

"with the difference that Jesus did not always exist ---> i.e. Jesus is not God
LOL, No. That there was a time when God was not Father. ... don't put words into wiki's mouth, you naughty person.

"nonetheless Jesus began to exist outside time" ---> Right .. his soul existed before he was born
Wrong. Again, not what wiki is saying.

"You see .. it is all down to preconceived ideas ...
In this case, clearly, yours.

'Nuff said.
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In purely verbal terms God became the Father when Christ became the Son? A father is not parent without children?

Of course there's no actual Father, no actual Son. They are human terms used to try to convey the interweaving of Spirit and nature, imo
 
RJM said:
In purely verbal terms God became the Father when Christ became the Son? A father is not parent without children?

Of course there's no actual Father, no actual Son. They are human terms used to try to convey the interweaving of Spirit and nature, imo
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I actually get this train of thought. God created family relationships as a shadow of what the reality is. I liken my relationship with the Father to my earthly father but much more. The truth is we can't really grasp it can we? It's very humbling
 
And in addition to what @RJM and @Faithfulservant have said – as God is changeless, never more nor less, and so forth, God is eternally Father.

The Fathers actually utilised Greek (NeoPlatonic) philosophy to argue that the principle of 'relationship' must be inherent in the Divine Nature, even though God is One, and simple, without 'parts' and not 'composed' of this-and-that, as it were... but that's me ...

As said, the reality is really beyond our ken ...
 
The explanation is so simple, yet folks are still unable to grasp the concept being taught...

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Godhead = Things that are made (God as Three)
Eternal Power = Invisible Things of Him (God as One)

Once again...

Outside of our Universe, God exists as a single unified field of infinite energy and information. This is when God is described as a 'Consuming Fire' or the 'Word'. It is the Software Code that powers and manifests our reality...

Hebrews 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Things Which are Seen = Godhead (i.e., the Atom/Trinity)
Invisible Things = Consuming Fire/Word

It is Wave vs. Particle. Spirit vs. Matter. Immaterial vs. Material.

What does Ezekiel teach us? The Spirit/Holy Ghost (one part of the Trinity) was 'in the Wheels'...

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The Eyes are Electrons. The Holy Ghost is electromagnetism. You know... Power of the Holy Spirit? Hello?
 
Even the High Priest Breastplate teaches Particle Physics...

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The Standard Model was there in the Bible all along, right in front of the so called 'Scholars' faces.
 
Colossians 2:9
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Wow, Jesus is made of Atoms. How difficult is that to understand??

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Base12 said:
Wow, Jesus is made of Atoms. How difficult is that to understand??
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You do realise Jesus was before the creation of the world, ie before nuclear particles?

When we speak of divine essence (ousia) and Divine energies (energeia) and indeed all cataphatic (positive) descriptions of God and the Divine Nature, we are talking in terms of analogies, not actualities.

Energy, in the material sense, belongs to the physical order of being.

The spiritual domain is a whole different order of being, and can be spoken of a something like, but not exactly like, its analogous (physical) counterpart – as the above analogy, each particle is not the complete atom, whereas each Person of the Trinity is wholly God.

(In fact the above analogy falls under the error of modalism)

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Trinitarians have to find every imaginary holes to climb into, always rejecting what Jesus said.
 
Thomas said:
You do realise Jesus was before the creation of the world, ie before nuclear particles?
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I already addressed this.

Before the creation of the World, i.e., outside of our Universe, God is One...

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

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Jesus existed, and still exists, as the Word of God before anything was made. Again, the Word (One) manifests our 3D physical reality (Godhead/Atom/Trinity)...

John 1:3
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

How can Matter be created if Matter did not exist? Assuming the Big Bang Theory is True, all physical Matter must have manifested from the Consuming Fire/Word just as the Bible teaches.

Our reality, i.e., all things, consist via the Word...

Colossians 1:17
"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Said Word of God became Atoms/Particles/Flesh...

John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

This verse is literal...

Ephesians 4:6
"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

The Word is in everything, and everything is made of Atoms and Particles. God is One, God is Three. The verses say what they mean and mean what they say, yet you are the one telling everyone not to believe the verses and that are "analogy and not actualities".

You people do this every time. Whenever a verse is too uncomfortable, you claim it is 'figure of speech, allegory, parable'... blah blah so that you can dismiss it outright and posit how wrong everyone is.

I choose to believe.
 
Thomas said:
"Jesus is the Son of God ---> OK .. Jews also believe in sons of God
Different context – as well you know, or are you saying Jews believe in many Gods?
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What? The context is according to the reader..
You see "Son of God" as God .. whereas I see Son of God, as in a Divine person.

Thomas said:
"with the difference that Jesus did not always exist ---> i.e. Jesus is not God
LOL, No. That there was a time when God was not Father. ... don't put words into wiki's mouth, you naughty person.
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I'm not with you .. who is saying that The Father has not always been God?
i.e. Our Father whom art in heaven..

Thomas said:
"nonetheless Jesus began to exist outside time" ---> Right .. his soul existed before he was born
Wrong. Again, not what wiki is saying.
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..you mean,, not how you interpret it, according to your preconceived ideas. :)

Thomas said:
"You see .. it is all down to preconceived ideas ...
In this case, clearly, yours.
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Naturally, I see things in the light of what I have learned in life .. as do we all.
 
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