The consequences of our neglect.

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

And yet even some of the Messengers engaged in or promoted war/violence? No human being can be described as perfect imo.

The Messengers gave God's Message and Laws for the age, suited to the people it was originally delivered to, but also relevant to all humanity.

One needs to understand the conditions of the age in which a Message was delivered. I see you enquire about if Muhammad reallly wanted and taught unity, He did, but the people of the age did not want it. They were war oriented tribes that would even bury girl babies alive, barbarous and Muhammad Message, even though greatly neglected, made of those tribes a great Nation who progressed science and learning which inevitably brought Christianity out of the dark ages.

I would offer that the perfect human, the image we are made in, is the Messengers. They are all the Names and Attributes of God.

I can offer that one could read about the childhood of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. There are good historical records available that show how different they are from birth.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Makes me wonder percentages of adherents in each religion which practice non violence (and even consider nonviolent communication).

Hindus are not Jains. We generally practice non-violence but do not make it into a fetish. It is OK to squash a mosquito that is troubling me. And some 70% of us are non-vegetarian, some eggetarian too.

That was no offered. The Nations of the world need to set the boundaries in a peaceful manner. How that will now happen is a story yet to be told.

Will happen or will not happen is in the womb of future.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Messengers are the perfect example, they are born perfect, the proof of their Person supports the claim.

Bahaollah conveniently moved out of Iran with the help of Iran's enemies and let his other followers face the ire of Iranian government. He was a deserter.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Bahaollah conveniently moved out of Iran with the help of Iran's enemies and let his other followers face the ire of Iranian government. He was a deserter.

A very uninformed and purposely malicious response.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

... which inevitably brought Christianity out of the dark ages.

Also uninformed ... the term 'dark ages' has been relegated to the wastebin by scholars.

That is not to underplay the debt Europe owes to Islam, nor the debt Islam owes to Europe, India and China.

 

[Modesty]

I see you enquire about if Muhammad reallly wanted and taught unity, He did, but the people of the age did not want it. They were war oriented tribes that would even bury girl babies alive, barbarous and Muhammad Message, even though greatly neglected, made of those tribes a great Nation who progressed science and learning which inevitably brought Christianity out of the dark ages.

I wasn't specifically thinking of Muhammad.

I would offer that the perfect human, the image we are made in, is the Messengers. They are all the Names and Attributes of God.

I can offer that one could read about the childhood of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. There are good historical records available that show how different they are from birth.

Well, my statement still stands. I don't really think any human is perfect, including the Messengers. I don't say that to offend anyone's religion. I'm sure they were very good and holy people.

 

[RJM]

would offer that the perfect human, the image we are made in, is the Messengers. They are all the Names and Attributes of God.

No natural entity not even the living Earth itself, is ever perfect -- all natural entities come to being in time and space, and all go to death. Imperfection -- death and change -- is the very definition of nature?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

No natural entity not even the living Earth itself, is ever perfect -- all natural entities come to being in time and space, and all go to death. Imperfection -- death and change -- is the very definition of nature?

When I read Ephesians 4 from verse 3, it gives me the teachings thay is required of me to become One with the "Perfect Man", Christ (as in verse 13)

".....3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:..."

Christ, Jesus, the perfect Man. Until we come unto that oneness and unity of Spirit, we do not partake of the perfection.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

No natural entity not even the living Earth itself, is ever perfect -- all natural entities come to being in time and space, and all go to death. Imperfection -- death and change -- is the very definition of nature?

I would offer I see no defects in God's creation, it is given in perfect balance for us to acheive our spiritual awakening.

Personally I can only marvel at its perfection.

A great read is this section of the Seven Valleys

Spoiler: No defect canst thou see in the creation of God

23And if, confirmed by the Creator, the lover escapeth the claws of the eagle of love, he will enter the Realm of Knowledge and come out of doubt into certitude, and turn from the darkness of wayward desire to the guiding light of the fear of God. His inner eye will open and he will privily converse with his Beloved; he will unlock the gates of truth and supplication and shut the doors of idle fancy. He in this realm is content with the divine decree, and seeth war as peace, and in death findeth the meaning of everlasting life. With both inward and outward eyes he witnesseth the mysteries of resurrection in the realms of creation and in the souls of men, and with a spiritual heart apprehendeth the wisdom of God in His endless manifestations. In the sea he findeth a drop, in a drop he beholdeth the secrets of the sea.Split the atom’s heart, and lo!Within it thou wilt find a sun.27

24Gazing with the eye of absolute insight, the wayfarer in this valley seeth in God’s creation neither contradiction nor incongruity, and at every moment exclaimeth, “No defect canst thou see in the creation of the God of mercy. Repeat the gaze: Seest thou a single flaw?”28 He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest. He breaketh the cage of the body and the hold of the passions, and communeth with the denizens of the immortal realm. He scaleth the ladders of inner truth and hasteneth to the heaven of inner meanings. He rideth in the ark of “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves”, and saileth upon the sea of “until it become plain to them that it is the truth”.29 And if he meeteth with injustice he shall have patience, and if he cometh upon wrath he shall manifest love.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Sigh ...

 

[Thomas]

I would offer I see no defects in God's creation, it is given in perfect balance for us to acheive our spiritual awakening.

Personally I can only marvel at its perfection.

I'd anwer that only God is perfect.

The Creation is finite and conditional – its perfection is relative, dependent, and subject to contingency.

There are threads in the Traditions East and West that the Perfected, the Enlightened, the Saved, the Delivered, cannot enjoy true happiness until every soul is saved.

That is it a source of wonder and joy is not disputed, but it's also the source of unhappiness and suffering.

 

[RJM]

Christians believe Jesus Christ was the perfection of man, the sinless new Adam. But although Baha'i try to manipulate the NT to make the same claim for Baha'u'llah -- for even greater in Baha'u'llah as Christ returned as the Father who spoke to Moses from the burning bush -- which makes no spiritual sense anyway -- Muhammad (pbuh) and Moses and other messengers clearly made no such claim to be a perfected Christ figure.

The whole Baha'i construction is all very confused and run off the sleeve and ad hoc pieced together to try to parallel the life of Jesus, imo

Everyone is entitled to their own belief, but Baha'i should just get on with their own religion instead of trying to enlist the Bible and Quran in support, imo

 

[RJM]

When I read Ephesians 4 from verse 3, it gives me the teachings thay is required of me to become One with the "Perfect Man", Christ (as in verse 13)

".....3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:..."

Christ, Jesus, the perfect Man. Until we come unto that oneness and unity of Spirit, we do not partake of the perfection.

Regards Tony

Paul was talking about Jesus, the sinless and crucified Christ who healed the lepers and the blind, and stilled the waves and raised the dead, who was himself raised from the dead -- he wasn't talking about Baha'u'llah.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'd answer that only God is perfect.

God was perfectly satisfied when he made humans in his own image. If there is something wrong in us, so is God.

Everyone is entitled to their own belief, but Baha'i should just get on with their own religion instead of trying to enlist the Bible and Quran in support, imo

Without Bible and Quran, Bahais will be like people with no legs.

 

[RJM]

God was perfectly satisfied when he made humans in his own image. If there is something wrong in us, so is God.

Then came the fall? Nature was born ...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Then came the fall? Nature was born ...

Nature was born before us. We were the last Godly product, though imperfect, like something not checked in the assembly line.

 

[RJM]

Nature was born before us. We were the last Godly product, though imperfect, like something not checked in the assembly line.

Ever since the fall, imperfect nature returns again to perfect spirit?

At the last day, nature will be returned again to Spirit? There will be no more days and nights, no time or space?

 

[RJM]

see #97 above

 

[talib-al-kalim]

How will humanity find Unity, without the Love that God has given us?

We won't find unity, but the love that God has given us is our most precious good and our best guidance

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Sigh ...

Well that was an unusual consequence.

So much wonder and beauty to discuss.

Regards Tony

I'd anwer that only God is perfect.

The Creation is finite and conditional – its perfection is relative, dependent, and subject to contingency.

There are threads in the Traditions East and West that the Perfected, the Enlightened, the Saved, the Delivered, cannot enjoy true happiness until every soul is saved.

That is it a source of wonder and joy is not disputed, but it's also the source of unhappiness and suffering.

So a a perfect God with a creation that is not perfect. That would be an oxymoron to my way of thinking.

I see any Imperfection is only a product of our limited relativity, we are not able to see the perfection on what we perceive as imperfection.

Regards Tony