Don't sweat it. He never denied Christ. He just isn't ready to sing it to the roof tops. And that is what bothers him a whole lot, and frankly I don't blame China Cat for that. Not everyone is a preacher. Some are simply quiet and do things in their own way. And this is deja vu, if I have ever seen it, wow.
Do you call yourself a Christian?
- Thread starter wil
- Start date
Don't sweat it. He never denied Christ. He just isn't ready to sing it to the roof tops. And that is what bothers him a whole lot, and frankly I don't blame China Cat for that. Not everyone is a preacher. Some are simply quiet and do things in their own way. And this is deja vu, if I have ever seen it, wow.
flowperson
Oannes
I believe considering the Heisenberg principle might help you in your endeavor, Flow. Using Planck's length in division with particle mass, prevents time or space from sequential event partitioning, hence the impossibility of determining a system of measure. Both location and action, position and momentum are required knowledge, but with light both can not be obtained simultaneously. It becomes a "catch 22" or circular exercise in logic.
"To travel from a to b one must leave point a. But how can one leave point a to get to b, if one does not know where point "a" begins and ends?
God, I love star trek...
v/r
Josh
Josh:
Beam me up...er...down ?
flow...
Thanks, Q.
Cage
Spirit Guided
There is a song that inspires me; it's about when things get tough, but I don't know what it's called, lol! (It's a country tune)
The lyrics go like this:
"I've been around and I've found that
walking is easy when the road is flat,
but those danged ole hills will get you every time.
The good Lord gave us mountains, so we could learn how to climb"
One of the sweetest feelings we get is when a mountain is presented before us, and the overwhelming satisfaction of reaching its peak, and overcoming its obstacles.
Much Love,
~James~
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Seattlegal!
Thank you for the wonderful explanation, this never occured to me in this depth...I simply knew Jesus stood as the final sacrifice, without which there is really nothing special about Christianity. Certainly nothing to form the basis of a religion.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, China Cat!
Thanks, it is a bit comforting knowing I am not alone in this struggle. By "historically factual" I am guessing you are referring to the trial and execution of Jesus? I don't know that I am willing to concede that "(t)he power lies in the mythos, not it's historicity." I am inclined to believe the power lies in the truth behind the mythos, history being but a small facet.
I don't know...I just can't seem to fathom Jesus as a "common" person. It really undermines the whole Christianity shebang, and turns Jesus into a renegade rabbi, turns Paul into a evangelical drum-banger reaching out to the dregs of society with a convoluted Judaism. If this were so, Christianity should have died an ignoble death long, long ago, around the time of Bar-Kochba or in one of the Roman purges. How long can one keep up the air in a lie? How does one keep a lie zealous enough over enough generations to last for two thousand years? Given apathy and atrophy, a lie surely couldn't maintain itself that long, even with a worldly power structure behind it. Too many Davids to take on Goliahs, too many Martin Luthurs to take on religious institutions...And too big of a G-d to allow such an insolent indisgression to continue.
Interesting observation, and considering how much of Christianity was cast in the general direction of Pagan Gentiles, I find little to wonder about. I do leave the door open a bit and wonder about whether the "Paganization" was done primarily during the time of Jesus and immediately after (most likely by Paul), or whether it was a function and / or by-product of Nicea and after.
I suspect any genuine student, any sincere seeker, would say belief involves a proving process.
Thanks, it is a bit comforting knowing I am not alone in this struggle. By "historically factual" I am guessing you are referring to the trial and execution of Jesus? I don't know that I am willing to concede that "(t)he power lies in the mythos, not it's historicity." I am inclined to believe the power lies in the truth behind the mythos, history being but a small facet.
I struggle often with this. One thing seems certain, G-d moved through the man Jesus in ways unlike any other man, or at the least like very few others. Whether that is sufficient to "make" him G-d, or an extension of G-d, I don't know. I keep coming back to the passage in Isaiah, which says (paraphrased) that "G-d bare His right arm in the world." Hmmm, never thought to ask BB about that one... But that is the ideal I have long held behind my vision of Jesus as Messiah.
I don't know...I just can't seem to fathom Jesus as a "common" person. It really undermines the whole Christianity shebang, and turns Jesus into a renegade rabbi, turns Paul into a evangelical drum-banger reaching out to the dregs of society with a convoluted Judaism. If this were so, Christianity should have died an ignoble death long, long ago, around the time of Bar-Kochba or in one of the Roman purges. How long can one keep up the air in a lie? How does one keep a lie zealous enough over enough generations to last for two thousand years? Given apathy and atrophy, a lie surely couldn't maintain itself that long, even with a worldly power structure behind it. Too many Davids to take on Goliahs, too many Martin Luthurs to take on religious institutions...And too big of a G-d to allow such an insolent indisgression to continue.
G-d never gives us more than we can handle....
.... I only wish He wouldn't trust me so much!
While we are going over the waterfall we never consider that this is just the beginning and once we survive the impact we get to learn to swim...and all of it, every bit of it, will take us on to bigger and better things and we'll look back at it all some day with a new found appreciation.
If you are going to laugh about it later, you may as well laugh about it now. Another mantra of mine...because while in the midst I still cannot see the light...I do now Know, with a capitol K that spirit is involved, and it is all good...I can't see it, I can't explain it, but through it all I will learn and grow and this is just another blessing of life...
I think what we are getting at is that it isn't a lie. Whether it is a story, an allegory, fact, history, metaphor, analogy, myth....at some point in time I realized it doesn't matter. What matters is how it affects your soul, how it resonates in your heart, what changes it makes on your life and how you treat others.
The stuff that will pull the perverbial rug out from under some folks belief system is exactly what cemented my understanding and allowed me the utmost freedom to commune with G-d, all, oneness...
Yeah I slip, but I have a path that my elder brother and wayshower blazed, and I can with just a nanomoment of thought and rememberance find that path, and be comforted that I am still on it...no matter how far I slip...I'm am but only one foot out of bounds...but it is upto me to make that step back.
Jesus is my saviour, not in that he saves me, but that he shows me how to save myself...and again, our elder brother shows that it is possible for all of G-d's children...
C
cyberpi
Guest
I saw why you said this and was sad to see your reply. There is another way. Why not CARE what a person thinks, yet understand that nobody lives the same and thinks the same? If someone is offended by me, or thinks I am or am NOT a Christian, or being evil, or that I am going to heaven or hell, then I sincerely want to hear it and understand their viewpoint. I care what every person thinks whether I agree or disagree with it. If I or another person is filthy in manufactured or self serving thoughts, I still care about it.Wil said:
I don't think it is a play on the definition of 'care'. One way is, "I see what you think, but I don't care what you think" and the other is, "I care what you think, but I don't think the same." If 'caring' is synonymous with 'loving' or 'thinking of' then the first way seems accurate. Afterall a person chooses their own thoughts and beliefs and tends to love the ones they've chosen. But if 'Love' or 'care' is a verb and we are to 'care' for others with our minds, then I submit the latter is a better path.
I find the mention of politically correct police is a well placed diversion. By stating that a person does not care what another person thinks, a person is just saying that they are the police and judge of their own thoughts. So it is not a matter of stating something a certain way (i.e. 'politically correct')... instead it is a matter of whether or not to listen to another person and accept their thoughts. So it is NOT the police over what a person says, but it is the police over what a person listens to. The only policing there might be against spying or not respecting a person's privacy... which would be kind of pointless on an overtly public forum. An individual chooses what an individual listens to, as well as says.
In a way, the question being asked in this thread has the same perspective with ownership of beliefs. Realize that before a person speaks that a person has first judged. So this thread asks me to judge for myself whether or not I am a Christian. Would that be a judgement of what I choose to read, study, and value... or a judgement of my deeds, fruits, and what I say? I recognize that I am the absolute WORST judge over whether or not I am a Christian. The worst. People can't glorify or condemn themselves. (Well, they can, but shouldn't) If I want to convey to a person a set of beliefs then I use the word 'Christian', but I'd prefer to say that I am a disciple, a student, or a follower, to remove the self-judgement of whether or not that I am.
I agree with Path_of_One that God or Christ is the best judge of whether or not a person is Christian. Besides being the source or definition of it, I imagine the Father and Jesus in heaven have an all-seeing perspective that is far better. But starting with the immediate disciples... shouldn't I consider each of their perspectives? Then how about Paul's? How about those Saints? A church? My neighbor? My brother? How about my enemy? Shouldn't I care what my enemy thinks? Do I even know what my enemy thinks? Do I even know what my brother, neighbor, church, or an alledged Saint truly thinks? How about whatever Paul was rambling on about? How about Christ and God... does anyone really know what they think? I know best what I think, and relative to whether or not I'm a Christian (or anything) it is the one perspective that I care the least about. I know less about others but care more about their perspective.
From another viewpoint, consider that it may actually be a compliment if someone judges and says, "You are not <being> a Christian". For example if you are repulsed by a person's stated beliefs, wouldn't it be more of an insult if they turned and judged that you are exactly the same as them? I have yet to find a person that thinks exactly, absolutely, the same as me or any other person. I question whether it is possible.
Namaste cyberpi,
In rereading my post you are correct, I was wrong in what I wrote it was not exactly whay I meant. So apologies to all including Silas and Path of One as what I meant was that whether he determined one to be a Christian or not be was not the purpose/discussion in this thread. What it the thread topic is about is whether one calls themself a Christian and why. Not a thread to be judgemental about what others think but to determine the scope and breadth of those affected by Jesus's life and works enough to call themselves followers of Christ.
So in this I was wrong on two counts...one in my words of saying I don't or We don't care...and two in being judgemental as well.
Thanx for the contemplations...
Caimanson
Mind or spirit?
Hello Juanto, nice exchange with China.
It depends how you define truth and lie.
I feel that the point that China made is that the myth works, and perhaps it works precisely because it is a myth and not fact.
The way I see it is that if christianity has survived so far it is because it has been effective enough to work in the lives of many people, just like Wil is suggesting.
When you say "too big a God to allow such indisgression", isn't that you projecting personal attributes to God, that God may or may not have?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Caimanson!
There is always the possibility I may be mistaken. If by "projecting personal attributes" you mean daring to believe G-d may actually have an interest in "His" creation, gauging by answered (and unanswered) prayer and commonplace and extraordinary miracles all around and across time, then I would have to say "yes, perhaps I am projecting personal attributes, that seem to me rather obvious." But, that's just my take on the matter. Do I think G-d is sitting on a cloud looking around for who to strike with a lightning bolt next?...no, that is not at all how I see things.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Wil!
I really need to pause here, I am not trying in any sense to be judgemental. If this view works for you, by all means proceed. But it matters, a great deal, to me, whether or not Christianity is fundamentally formulated on a true basis, or not. If not, Christianity becomes "just another" set of bedtime stories, another set of Aesop's morality myths. Nice, but unreal. Who remembers "the ant and the grasshopper?" Who cares? With a real Jesus, who died a real death as a real "perfect" sacrifice, who rose again on the 3rd day, all promises made by him hold merit. The promise(s) that if we abide in his teachings and walk in his path, we have a place among the abodes in the heavens. And that if we don't, we won't (whatever that eventually means).
I appreciate what you are trying to say here, but the problem I have with this line of reasoning is what difference is there between this and holding some other story / allegory / fact / history / metaphor / analogy / myth as my prevaling morality mythos? At a surface level, this seems to justify and corrobberate (sp?) other religious memetic paradigms, and that is well and good. But it undermines the Christian memetic paradigm in that I could just as easily hold "Little Red Riding Hood" as my morality myth. I have read many, many heartfelt, moving and touching stories, even ones with what could be called moral lessons. Could I not just as easily hold the "Chicken Soup for the Soul" series of books as a Gospel? None of these hold a promise of eternal co-existence with my Creator, or offer a human face (albeit one I have not laid eyes on) to act as representative of G-d on earth. In that sense, such an argument doesn't even measure up to my understanding of Buddhism...
I really need to pause here, I am not trying in any sense to be judgemental. If this view works for you, by all means proceed. But it matters, a great deal, to me, whether or not Christianity is fundamentally formulated on a true basis, or not. If not, Christianity becomes "just another" set of bedtime stories, another set of Aesop's morality myths. Nice, but unreal. Who remembers "the ant and the grasshopper?" Who cares? With a real Jesus, who died a real death as a real "perfect" sacrifice, who rose again on the 3rd day, all promises made by him hold merit. The promise(s) that if we abide in his teachings and walk in his path, we have a place among the abodes in the heavens. And that if we don't, we won't (whatever that eventually means).
I am happy for you that this works for you. In some sense I agree and appreciate, Jesus is the wayshower. I simply hold the caveat that I am not, and cannot possibly be, Jesus. I can walk his path to the best of my ability, and certainly he would prefer that I did. But I cannot cross that threshold in this existence, I am not Christ.
BuzzLY
Space Ranger
Negative. I call myself Buzz Lightyear, Space Ranger.
Cage
Spirit Guided
That's so funny; I saw your user name, and asked myself "What does that stand for", lol! I got the answer right off.
Welcome,
~James~
China Cat Sunflower
Nimrod
- Messages
- 2,924
- Reaction score
- 13
- Points
- 0
Juan said:
I have had a similar dilemma, but mine is a little different. I don't think that the Gospels were written to be an historical account. I do think that they present a view of , a slice if you will, of something much larger than the Jesus character they depict. It's kinda like poetry or even abstract art that way. The artist is trying to communicate something larger than just the words on paper or colors on canvas. Add to that the fact that we have almost nothing about an actual, historical Jesus in any reputable source material.
So, I'm getting from what you've said that for you the only alternative to belief is to dismiss the whole thing as a lie. I don't see it that way. I can't shake the thought that there's something much, much bigger under the surface of Paul and the Gospels because, like you said, there has to be an explanation for the impetus and longevity of the movement.
I see little clues here and there, but there's also an enormous garbage heap of foo-foo mythology with it's tendrils protruding here, there, and everywhere just waiting to take one on a wild goose chase. My experience is that it's very, very difficult to find good information, and one must always suspect one's own motives when deciding what to accept or reject. It's a big, thorny, briarpatch, there are no easy answers, and all of the low hanging fruit is fermented.
Chris
Namaste 123, first and foremost, I have become fully aware that you are here for the discussion, contemplation and not being judgemental, but questioning and exploring righ along with the rest of us. No worries at all in that regard. We also know we differ in many ways but can converse together regarding our similarities and differences...I so appreciate that.
The way I see it we are living a phase of your eternal co-existence with G-d now and forever and nothing we can do can change that. I also understand that we look at human faces of G-d every time we look into anothers eyes or the mirror and choose to see.
Again in my paradigm we'll get as many lives as it takes...but the end result will be our realization of the truth that exists...we are all one, one with each other, one with the universe, one with G-d, inseperable now and forever.
And at this juncture I would say you are 100% correct. And if you said the exact opposite I would say you are 100% correct. I'm not saying, nor asking that you believe me, but can you understand how that could, how the potential exists that it could be so?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, China Cat!
Well, there is Josephus, but I do suppose "reputable" is another one of those relative terms. I think I see what you are saying, and I don't dismiss it out of hand. It is the backstory, the kernal of truth as Flow put it, as to whether or not the whole thing is valid and worthy. That didn't come out quite right. Certainly there are moral lessons within which are valid in their own right, as simply moral lessons: do unto others, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, blah blah blah. It is the matter of whether or not the messenger is even remotely what he is claimed to be...I can accept for the sake of argument that Jesus may not be G-d per se...but if Jesus was not an instrument of G-d to serve a G-dly purpose and fulfil a specific G-dly destiny with direct implications for what became Christianity, then why should I bother? What distinguishes Christianity from, oh, say Rastafari? Or Santeria, for that matter? What is so special about Christianity, if one takes away its Divine(ly inspired) Messiah? The morality lessons can be learned in a host of places outside of Christianity, even outside of Monotheism, even outside of religion. Therefore (and I know this seems a repeat of what I just said in an earlier post), without a Divine Messiah, there is nothing particularly special about Christianity, certainly nothing worth founding a religion.
That's just it...because there seems to be something "bigger" just beneath the surface, I'm not inclined to dismiss Christianity as founded on a lie. There has to be an explanation for the longevity, and that longevity is not simply held in a collection of morality myths and fairy tales. I was only somewhat facetious when I mentioned Little Red Riding Hood...that story is what, about 400 years old since the Brothers Grimm put into a popular format? It probably dates much earlier. While it is a morality myth, and a darn good one, it is *not* the basis of a religion, even in combination with the remaining Grimm's Fairy Tales. That's my point about that. Without Jesus as Christ, the New Testament is little different than Grimm's Fairy Tales.
LOL, yes the low hanging fruit is fermented, that that isn't already rotten on the tree! I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, wil!
The whole deal, all of Christianity, and I might dare add Judaism, is so simple in common sense. Simple common sense reality. With that in mind, even if it makes no sense logically, Jesus as Messiah, an instrument of G-d, seems only right and true and correct. It just seems "real."
Anyway, I've probably beaten this horse to death by now...
I'll step off the soapbox and give someone else a turn...
Thank you sincerely for the vote of confidence.
I agree, in the same sense you spoke of earlier about G-d hearing our every thought. We cannot hide from G-d, our every action good and bad, deliberate and unintentional is right there available for His viewing pleasure, so to speak. And while we may wish to limit His abilities (Oh, G-d couldn't possibly see everything -or- why should He be bothered with such petty nonsense?), I do *believe* that every action can be recalled. Can't say how, I'm not G-d's mechanic. But I do think we will be called to task for all we do, or don't do.
In an esoteric / Buddhist sort of way I can understand this, and even to a degree empathize. Perhaps we do get as many lives as it takes...I'm not one to bet on that though. I'll continue with the one I've got to do the best I can with. If you're correct, I still win, I still make it to the next level. If I'm correct...I hope the best for those who think they can excuse their actions now by getting it right next time around.
I don't know that you are correct, even more I don't know that I am correct. I follow where the Spirit leads me. Those matters that seem foreign and uncomfortable I tend to leave alone. I don't wish anyone ill, and anyone who wishes me ill will meet resistance. I treat others, for the most part, as I wish to be treated. The exception being those who show me they have no intent of meeting peaceably, in which case I invoke self-defense (even if pre-emptive). Another name is "tough-love." I am willing to share, but I will not waste effort on those not ready or willing to hear. I am willing to hear, until I hear something that is so far out there I just lose interest (I am human). I am not faultless, I have chinks in my armor, lots of them. But I do try, very hard, to live up to my understanding of what Messiah taught. As the Preacher in Ecclesiastes says, I live my life not being too wise or foolish, too "righteous" or too "sinful". As the Proverbs remind us, seek wisdom as for hidden treasure and little with quiet is better than riches with chaos.
The whole deal, all of Christianity, and I might dare add Judaism, is so simple in common sense. Simple common sense reality. With that in mind, even if it makes no sense logically, Jesus as Messiah, an instrument of G-d, seems only right and true and correct. It just seems "real."
Anyway, I've probably beaten this horse to death by now...
I'll step off the soapbox and give someone else a turn...
China Cat Sunflower
Nimrod
- Messages
- 2,924
- Reaction score
- 13
- Points
- 0
Juan,
Thanks for your kind replies.
So, I think we've covered the bases as far as my essential dilemma. But to recap: If Jesus isn't the one and only avenue to salvation, what's the point? I can't find enough evidence to believe, but I do find enough that I can't entirely dismiss. And I can't just decide to believe, but I also can't just decide to join the happy atheists because that's a leap of faith as well.
Well, I accept the essential tension of life, but it gives me no solace. I guess that's just the way it is.
Chris
Thanks for your kind replies.
So, I think we've covered the bases as far as my essential dilemma. But to recap: If Jesus isn't the one and only avenue to salvation, what's the point? I can't find enough evidence to believe, but I do find enough that I can't entirely dismiss. And I can't just decide to believe, but I also can't just decide to join the happy atheists because that's a leap of faith as well.
Well, I accept the essential tension of life, but it gives me no solace. I guess that's just the way it is.
Chris