c0de
Vassal
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so they should be as brazen as the radicals, yet still be moderates?
Hmmm who else talked like that? Was it GWB... or OBL??
Oh yea, that's rite... both of em.
Burn the Qu'ran day?
- Thread starter 17th Angel
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so they should be as brazen as the radicals, yet still be moderates?
Oh yea, that's rite... both of em.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
How about as vocal, here they are even more so. It isn't hard to do.
How about MLK?...I also hear it quite a bit as the modern mantra of those standing up for civil rights of all kinds.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Have you ever really analyzed interfaith dialogue? Strange as it seems, it is boring. People are not drawn to it. It's like a textbook...dull.
People need to be incited, excited, need to have something to stir their passions. Those are the really good conversations.
Good Nietzsche quote...but if the standard rates apply anything he says will be dismissed because of who he is. Go figure. Ad Hominem seems to be stock in trade for this discussion, it is the first line brought out. Sheesh. So much for logic, eh? And logic was supposed to be perfected by Muslims in Cordoba wasn't it? Too bad they don't (usually) remember much of it anymore...
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juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Great stuff Janz!
So, why aren't American moderate Muslims getting this stuff out there to Americans?
This stuff needs to be shouted from the roof tops!!!
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juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I was listening to a radio interview with a woman who was identified at the end as being the spokesperson for the NY mosque builders...tuned in during the middle and didn't catch her name, darn the luck because I want to chase this interview down in print.
When asked about the difference between Saudi and America, specifically why there were no churches in Saudi, her reply as near as I can recall was:
"There is no reason to compare Saudi with America," and then changed the subject.
If that was coming from an American politician I would expect the classic dodge...but here was a representative of the Muslim faith, albeit an abstract one, in a position to address a very real concern of many Americans...and she avoided the question???
Excuse me but, there is *every* reason to compare Saudi with America. Especially if something like a high profile Mosque is to be built very close to sensitive and sacred ground.
When asked about the difference between Saudi and America, specifically why there were no churches in Saudi, her reply as near as I can recall was:
"There is no reason to compare Saudi with America," and then changed the subject.
If that was coming from an American politician I would expect the classic dodge...but here was a representative of the Muslim faith, albeit an abstract one, in a position to address a very real concern of many Americans...and she avoided the question???
Excuse me but, there is *every* reason to compare Saudi with America. Especially if something like a high profile Mosque is to be built very close to sensitive and sacred ground.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Does anyone think a Christian church can or should build "a multi-faith initiative intended to cultivate understanding among all religions and cultures" in Saudi or any other Sharia nation?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Read more: Ground Zero mosque plan imam ignores pastor?s deadline for talks - Press & Journal
Any surprise there?
OK, so the book burner guy is a kook...but 5 minutes would have gone a long way...and this Imam couldn't do that much? Are we to believe that a Muslim's promise isn't worth the air to utter it?
And don't get me started on the slum lord articles I found on this NY Imam...if they are to be believed he seriously represents the worst of the stereotypes.
BTW, I want to think the best of the Orlando Imam that stepped up to try to defuse the situation here, I just hope it wasn't a sham to begin with...what with the NY Imam not even calling this pastor, I can't help but wonder.
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Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Really? You want war?
I could probably give you one. We haven't had very many battles against each other. Is that what you mean by this place being boring? There aren't enough fights going on?There was actually something I wanted to say about one of the points you raised earlier. I don't think I explored it the way I should have and I believe I had a better argument. There's just something else I want to do right now and I don't want to spend time on a "very important post" (VIP).
Let's rev it up a notch hey?
The point I wanted to discuss actually isn't the one to have a bickering session over -- just an unresolved disagreement.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Now who's the extremist? Feast or famine? All or nuthin'? No middle ground?Really? You want war?
It is a fine line and a balancing act; but if the people here can't do it, who can?
Bring it! Let's see what you got...
Janz
What's Amatta U
Yes, provide your sources.
I can't believe that you can believe anything this so called Pastor says. He is the one lying..do we have an independent source who says that the Iman even talked to this attention whore known as Terry Jones..no we don't. Yet you favor him over the Iman..you suspect them of being liars while Jones is believable?
Did you know that there was a Mosque located in one of the Twin Towers for years where Muslims (who were also killed in the attack) prayed ? No one complained then but now it is a sin to renovate an already standing building to a Community Center with a prayer room ie a Mosque within it blocks away from Ground Zero and it isn't even visible from there. But do you know what is visible from GZ? I have been told that this sacred and hallowed ground is surrounded by strip clubs, bars, porn shops etc.
Did you also know that Terry Jones was expelled from a Church in Germany for spiritual abuse, lying about his credentials and possible theft:
"In addition to forbidding free expression, there were a number of 'financial irregularities' when Jones and his wife Sylvia were in charge.
Andrew Schafer, an official responsible for monitoring churches in the region of Cologne said people who were ministered by Jones are still in therapy for 'spiritual abuse'.
Read more: Koran burning pastor Terry Jones was expelled from German church | Mail Online
Andrew Schafer, an official responsible for monitoring churches in the region of Cologne said people who were ministered by Jones are still in therapy for 'spiritual abuse'.
Read more: Koran burning pastor Terry Jones was expelled from German church | Mail Online
Jones was also at odds with the German authorities over his claim to hold a doctorate, and in 2002 he was fined €3,000 Euros (£2,478) by a Cologne court for falsely assuming the title.
The fallout had much to do with Jones's dictatorial stance towards the church's beliefs and his desire for fame, according to current members.
German church disowns Terry Jones, Qur'an-burning American preacher | World news | The Guardian
I wish to God that the mainstream corporate media (controlled by capitalist, btw) had ignored him and I think it is wise that the Iman ignores him as well. He is more than a "kook." He is delusional and dangerous.
PS Go Salty!! I agree with all that you are saying.
Janz
What's Amatta U
I also I would like to add that I do not favor Islam or Christianity. What I do sense is that both the fundamentalist, conservative strands are very much alike in their goals. They are in competition with each other for converts. I know of Christian missionaries who are covertly entering Muslim countries because they feel the need to bring the true Gospel of Jesus Christ to all the Muslim nations. In fact, most of them are the Charismatic Pentecostal types like this Terry Jones guy.
Has anyone here every heard of the 1040 Window? It is a large group of Christian Missionaries who are committed to bring the Gospel to the "unreached people groups" in an area that extends from 10 degrees to 40 degrees North of the equator, and stretches from North Africa across to China. They fervently believe that once all these non-Christians have heard the Gospel and had an opportunity to accept Christ as their personal lord and savior, then Jesus will come again to set up his earthly kingdom and the whole world will be Christians and the rest who have rejected Christ will burn in hell for eternity. It may be illegal for Christian churches to be built in these countries but these people will break the law to build secret Churches as the "Body of Christ" is not a building.
So of course, religious competition is evident and these Christians do feel like they are at war with satan for the souls of humanity. To them, Islam is of the devil. They do want to keep Muslims out of the USA because of that reason. The Jews are favored by God but Muslims are not. I really feel like the rest of us are going to be caught in this war between these factions of Islam and Christianity.
Has anyone here every heard of the 1040 Window? It is a large group of Christian Missionaries who are committed to bring the Gospel to the "unreached people groups" in an area that extends from 10 degrees to 40 degrees North of the equator, and stretches from North Africa across to China. They fervently believe that once all these non-Christians have heard the Gospel and had an opportunity to accept Christ as their personal lord and savior, then Jesus will come again to set up his earthly kingdom and the whole world will be Christians and the rest who have rejected Christ will burn in hell for eternity. It may be illegal for Christian churches to be built in these countries but these people will break the law to build secret Churches as the "Body of Christ" is not a building.
So of course, religious competition is evident and these Christians do feel like they are at war with satan for the souls of humanity. To them, Islam is of the devil. They do want to keep Muslims out of the USA because of that reason. The Jews are favored by God but Muslims are not. I really feel like the rest of us are going to be caught in this war between these factions of Islam and Christianity.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Yep, that seems to be the best argument presented so far.
Thinking is way too hard and not near as much fun as hyperbole, grandstanding, mud slinging and outright falsehoods.
Well played sir...
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
OK, (mind you I was only looking for that speech I heard yesterday from the spokeslady I heard on the radio):
http://politisite.com/2010/09/02/ground-zero-mosque-imam-feisal-abdul-rauf-slumlord/
Mosque spiritual leader Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf also alleged slumlord in Jersey - NYPOST.com
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a slumlord | The Right Scoop
NorthJersey.com: Kelly: If imam can build bridges, why can?t he get rid of the rats?
There are more if you would like.
Which Iman? The one from Orlando spoke personally to Jones. He arranged the meeting between Jones and the NY Iman...ostensibly to mollify Jones into not going through with the book burning...this much was reported on the local news...whether or not it made it to the worldwide news I can't say, obviously it wouldn't play so well to the radicals so I won't be the least surprised if it wasn't covered. Judging by the reports of continuing lunacy in Afghanistan, I doubt it.
Jones initially claimed there was a deal to move the NY mosque, which was immediately denied by both Imans...but the Orlando Iman reiterated that the NY Iman was willing to meet with Jones.
Imam Asked Pastor on Koran Burning: 'What Would Jesus Do?' - Bloomberg
And its been widely reported the NY Iman refused to speak with Jones...
Actually, I did know, but it is irrelevent. If by renovate you mean tear down and build a monolithic poke in the eye, yes, I knew that too. So if there is already a Mosque standing two blocks from the proposed site, why there? Why now?
I see, but a slumlord who clearly has no concern for the tenants in his own buildings is a shining example of spiritual leadership, ecumenical fellowship and concern for the well being of downtrodden people? Even after repeated complaints, he obviously has no concern over infestations of bedbugs and other vermin in his buildings among other safety and structural maintenance issues.
So as long as we are going to continue attacking persons instead of addressing issues, this will go nowhere here just like everywhere else.
How about let's stick to the issues instead?
Jones may be a kook, that does not mean he does not raise issues that are close to the hearts of many Americans. Even a blind pig can find a truffle. Americans by and large are not so far out there to threaten buring Korans, but that does not mean these matters are of no concern. Islam in America is doing very little to reassure Americans, and Islam overseas will continue as it has for centuries doing what can only be called abuse of human rights and dignity.
c0de
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How many AK47 (or in your case M4) wielding radicals have you tried being "vocal" with?
Which part of the "I have a dream" speech were you trying to emulate,
with your "with us or against us/silence equals complicity" spiel?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I didn't know of the Christian group, but I am not at all surprised.
Radical factions are fringe elements that cause concern for everybody, but that is no reason to dismiss matters here.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Have you never heard of the printed word?
Ah, yet another deformation of logic...
Show me please where I invoked the "Dream" speech? MLK was far more prolific than that one speech. Fact of the matter is I got it from a long time activist member here...have you ever conversed with "Pathless?"
As for the "with us or against us" part, that is *your* interjection, not mine. Anybody who knows me at all, knows I invite critique and objection. I don't care if you are against me...and the thing is, I still love ya bro!
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
You are the master of sarcasm! I love it!
c0de
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Have you never heard of assassinations, kidnappings, and beheadings?
Where is the logic in this statement?
"silence equals complicity" ?
Which part of the dream speech did the rest of his career contradict?
Got, what?
Please explain "silence equals complicity" in terms which don't equal "with us or against us"
So do the anti-Muslim hate websites.
They all pretend as if they are willing to change their minds and have a real dialogue.
So if you don't care about people who are against you,
then what's the point of your whole diatribe on this thread?
bob x
Well-Known Member
The American moderate Muslim who has been most active in travelling the Middle East, denouncing the radicals to their faces and putting them in their place as you put it, is Imam Rauf.