The significance of the life and death of Jesus?

The "eternal life" quotes are most likely not the direct words of Jesus (see "The Five Gospels"). In the earliest layers (Q, Thomas, the Marcian miracle stories) of the Jesus Movements' words, dating before the Pauline wrtings (probably) and before the Gospels, the emphasis is just what Gatekeeper indicates: a radical social justice agenda within the general confines of Judaism. However, the twist is that they are presented (esp Thomas and the first layer of Q) in the manner of the Greek cynics. Not too surprizing since Galilee was kind of a Hellenic-Judaic region separated from Judea by the semi-heretic Samaritans.

It is possible that Jesus was speaking at this level but the Pauline trend superceded the original context. Since the Jerusalem Jewish Christians died out and the Gnostics were under siege by the time the NT was voted on, we will not ever know.
 
Whatever words he spoke in relation to eternal life, it is certain what he has referenced: realizing you are the One Life (Holy=whole=one, Spirit=pneuma=breath of life) you realize you cannot die, only this particular vehicle can die. In this, there is a great peace, and that peace is the salvation - just as the Hindu's speak of liberation, it is a freeing from petty fears and all other nonsense of the feeble mind. This is the whole purpose of religion, it is not to teach a way of living, it is to see what you actually are.

Most people are identified with their current temporary form, it is certainly part of you but the whole physical world is part of your being, why be identified with such a minuscule thing? You must find that which is permanent in yourself, then there is an eruption in which this is revealed. Find the truth of your essence and you are liberated from the fallacies which form your current experience.
 
dont forget that in Christianity Jesus did not just die, he died and then on the third day rose again, this is significant :)
 
dont forget that in Christianity Jesus did not just die, he died and then on the third day rose again, this is significant :)

How so? Please explain how this is relevant to spirituality.

There is a significance, but I am wondering if you are aware.
 
dont forget that in Christianity Jesus did not just die, he died and then on the third day rose again, this is significant :)


I think this is what the inquiry is about ... Is it necessary to believe in the physical resurrection? I for one don't think it is. I place more value on his life than on his death. If he was truly raised that's great, but if it's not true would this effect your faith in him? I think imitating his life the best we are able is enough. What we believe about his death and resurrection is surely far less important than who we become by heeding his life teachings (imo).
 
I think imitating his life the best we are able is enough.

By imitating another, you simply drop whatsoever is unique about yourself.

Jesus can assist you in understanding, but do not become a carbon copy - Jesus has already been done.
 
I think this is what the inquiry is about ... Is it necessary to believe in the physical resurrection? I for one don't think it is. I place more value on his life than on his death. If he was truly raised that's great, but if it's not true would this effect your faith in him? I think imitating his life the best we are able is enough. What we believe about his death and resurrection is surely far less important than who we become by heeding his life teachings (imo).

what do you make of this then, give what you have just said ?

1 Corinthians 15:3-5
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.
 
I'd say that it is possible that Paul was fallible like the rest of us. He did suggest that our faith is in vain if Jesus did not rise after all. I disagree!


so which bits of the bible do you take seriously ?

some of it, all of it, the bits you like or none of it ?
 
Forgetfulness, the new identifications wish to show they are important.

I think in practical terms. I don't think in terms of mysticism or spirituality. I see a world where people pursue different agendas. Where is the oneness in that?

Every system has parts, whether is a political, social, economic, electrical, mechanical or chemical one. I do not call the whole a "oneness" because the parts are not conscious or aware of one another. It is the same with the world in which we live. We all see a small fraction of the whole universe and this puts us in conflict with others due to our limited perspective. How is that oneness?

We are not one because we are not God and cannot see everything. If we could all see everything like God, then maybe we'd be one. But this is not the case.

You are speaking to someone that lives in oneness, and you are saying there is no such thing? It is not an achievement either, it is our natural state.

If you live in oneness and that oneness includes everything, why do we think differently?

I am showing you the same thing, in the state of oneness, you realize you are in the Kingdom this moment.

But the people in the Kingdom are separate from those that are not in the Kingdom. Jesus clearly saw the two as separate.

I am not speaking of philosophy or spirituality either, I am speaking about exactly that relationship with the cosmos. Philosophy is of mind, spirituality is one half of another duality, a mere concept. I try to show what you are, that is all...

If I am really this thing you call "oneness," why am I not aware of it? If I am "it" or I am part of "it," surely I'd know?

I do not speak of perfection either, not in the sense of some ideal... I merely show that with both war and peace there is perfection, the balance of it all is exactly perfect already. They are merely providing contrast for the other that we can recognize each.

Am I not part of this "war and peace?" Am I not part of this "balance?" We are all just playing our part. I acknowledge that I am part of the system, and as part of the system, I fight and live for what I want because that is what everybody else does. I don't see any point in being "enlightened" because I do not see how this really changes things. It doesn't make us less human. We still have needs and desires. Everybody is going to do what they are going to do based on whatever knowledge or experience they have learnt in the past or will gain in the future.

I don't call it "perfection," I call it "the way things are."
 
so which bits of the bible do you take seriously ?

some of it, all of it, the bits you like or none of it ?


I take it all seriously and none of it as serious as most. I simply do not take it to be literal and absolute truth. I view God to be all that is (life) and we are all inspired by God. Life inspires us to search for truth and understanding, but we are fallible, just as the writers of the bible were fallible. Truth can be an elusive thing, but life is what inspires us to search for it and often times we are also inspired to teach others and write down what our inspiration has led us to believe. Take the many holy texts available to us, for example. What is seemingly true for one religious sect is often times considered to be a fallacy by another. God is more than a concept or a mental construct. God is more than what our minds imagine him to be.


What I'm suggesting is that our thoughts, beliefs, and all we think we understand derives from life. This doesn't make our views accurate, but rather inspired by our life experiences. We are very creative and imaginative creatures, so we invent concepts in order to help us understand what is. We have a plethora of different concepts of God, but as I suggested, God is more than a mental construct. To me, God is all things! To me, God is life in its entirety, knowable, searchable, and infinite.


With being said, our thoughts originate from external and internal variables, subjective experience, objective reality, as well as from faulty processed information. We in effect, create an image of what we think to be true when these images aren't necessarily accurate. We are fallible, creative, imaginative, and we often conclude prematurely. We often think we know a thing, call that thing truth, and then idle. We should never stop attempting to understand God. I think when we do this (conclude and idle) we in effect prevent ourselves from gaining further understanding.


Logic would dictate that the bible is somewhat a history book describing mankind's journey in life, and how they imagined God to be this and that, and how God desired this and that from man, etc. It' a great book, no doubt. Literary genius if you ask me. It has everything a person could want in a book. I mean it has war, violence, blood, rape, incest, but also hope, love, redemption, and goodness. It's about the worst humanity has to offer, yet also about the best we can hope for as a people.


Perhaps you view the bible is the only means to know God. I might suggest that we can know God through life and love. Many place the book above creation in all its wonder, while I recognize God in all things (even in scripture) but I also realize that the scriptures are not infallible. Most of the writ was penned by men after countless years of oral tradition, and thus are subject to human error, just as we are.


"In light of how I view God, I think scientists may have a better understanding of God than many who are religious. Scientist base their views on the objective universe instead of on ancient and supernatural systems of belief. Religion certainly serves its purpose and continues to fill the needs of its adherents, but science could very well be the best system when it comes to understanding God's reality.


I think most scientists would probably scoff at this idea, that there's a God at all, but what if? What if God IS life/existence/reality? Wouldn't science then be the best system to utilize in an attempt to better understand our point of origin? What if atheists and scientists actually posses a better understanding of God than do most theists? Wouldn't that be something? Of course, few in the secular community would consider the possibility, nor would the religious community consider such a notion. Even so, It could be possible that religion has perverted the truth of God, while science has been faithful all along."
 
I take it all seriously and none of it as serious as most. I simply do not take it to be literal and absolute truth. I view God to be all that is (life) and we are all inspired by God. Life inspires us to search for truth and understanding, but we are fallible, just as the writers of the bible were fallible. Truth can be an elusive thing, but life is what inspires us to search for it and often times we are also inspired to teach others and write down what our inspiration has led us to believe. Take the many holy texts available to us, for example. What is seemingly true for one religious sect is often times considered to be a fallacy by another. God is more than a concept or a mental construct. God is more than what our minds imagine him to be.

What I'm suggesting is that our thoughts, beliefs, and all we think we understand derives from life. This doesn't make our views accurate, but rather inspired by our life experiences. We are very creative and imaginative creatures, so we invent concepts in order to help us understand what is. We have a plethora of different concepts of God, but as I suggested, God is more than a mental construct. To me, God is all things! To me, God is life in its entirety, knowable, searchable, and infinite.

With being said, our thoughts originate from external and internal variables, subjective experience, objective reality, as well as from faulty processed information. We in effect, create an image of what we think to be true when these images aren't necessarily accurate. We are fallible, creative, imaginative, and we often conclude prematurely. We often think we know a thing, call that thing truth, and then idle. We should never stop attempting to understand God. I think when we do this (conclude and idle) we in effect prevent ourselves from gaining further understanding.


i agree thought and beliefs are formed by our life, but I dont think our thoughts and beliefs are what we really are, the thing i call me is just a collection of habits and fears but its not really what I am.

Logic would dictate that the bible is somewhat a history book describing mankind's journey in life, and how they imagined God to be this and that, and how God desired this and that from man, etc. It' a great book, no doubt. Literary genius if you ask me. It has everything a person could want in a book. I mean it has war, violence, blood, rape, incest, but also hope, love, redemption, and goodness. It's about the worst humanity has to offer, yet also about the best we can hope for as a people.


Perhaps you view the bible is the only means to know God. I might suggest that we can know God through life and love. Many place the book above creation in all its wonder, while I recognize God in all things (even in scripture) but I also realize that the scriptures are not infallible. Most of the writ was penned by men after countless years of oral tradition, and thus are subject to human error, just as we are.

i still read the Bible sometimes, but i dont believe all of it, i think some of its quite bad really, but I cant deny that it is a powerful thing.

i was curios to your logic though on which bits you decide to keep but you dont.

"In light of how I view God, I think scientists may have a better understanding of God than many who are religious. Scientist base their views on the objective universe instead of on ancient and supernatural systems of belief. Religion certainly serves its purpose and continues to fill the needs of its adherents, but science could very well be the best system when it comes to understanding God's reality.


I think most scientists would probably scoff at this idea, that there's a God at all, but what if? What if God IS life/existence/reality? Wouldn't science then be the best system to utilize in an attempt to better understand our point of origin? What if atheists and scientists actually posses a better understanding of God than do most theists? Wouldn't that be something? Of course, few in the secular community would consider the possibility, nor would the religious community consider such a notion. Even so, It could be possible that religion has perverted the truth of God, while science has been faithful all along."
 
i agree thought and beliefs are formed by our life, but I dont think our thoughts and beliefs are what we really are, the thing i call me is just a collection of habits and fears but its not really what I am.


Something like an "avatar", where your real self merely occupies a body? Btw, I thought that was a great movie and certainly not an impossibility. We [are] spiritual beings, just as we are physical beings. It could be that our bodies are simply shells/vessels we occupy that enables us to experience life.


i still read the Bible sometimes, but i dont believe all of it, i think some of its quite bad really, but I cant deny that it is a powerful thing.

i was curios to your logic though on which bits you decide to keep but you dont.


I suppose my logic is that we really don't know what is true and what is not, so instead of taking everything written and declaring it true, I take from the writ what I can use to better myself and the world I live in. If it isn't in line with love, or if it is not beneficial, then I usually question its validity. As far as Jesus raising from the dead, I don't know therefore I don't concern myself with it as much as most Christians. I simply don't think it matters in the end.
 
Very good discussion, you two. FWIW Gatekeeper is really close to my view. Both OT and NT there in a very serious way to instruct us how we can behave well (notre, I do not say "tell us how"). Everything past crucifixion is questionable (the myth is gorgegous and "mythically-mystically" very important to me).

I make up my mind about what is objectively or absolutely true based on same criteria I apply to any other text. Is there a sub-structure? Parts missing? Errors? Does it fit in with what we know of history? the world? science?
 
As far as Jesus raising from the dead, I don't know therefore I don't concern myself with it as much as most Christians. I simply don't think it matters in the end.

Gate - what is your view on faith, then? The NT talks so much about the importance of faith, yet you are agnostic regarding the afterlife and you dismiss Paul's idea that faith is in vain if there is no empty tomb? What exactly do you think Jesus wanted us to have faith in?

For example, “For we walk by faith, not by sight.' II Corinthians 5:7”. Yet when I read Gatekeeper's posts it seems that you're walking more by sight (logic - picking which teachings to follow, for example) than by faith? Thoughts?
 
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